The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 291 - The Five Points of Contact

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: I recently had an aha moment about a framework I've been teaching for almost twenty years.

Pete: Oh, I love this. A fresh aha moment on something you know intimately. This is fun.

Jen: Yes. So, this framework is one that I use to help actors navigate making a connection in the audition room. But my big aha moment is that it can be applied in other settings. And the framework is called "the five points of contact".

Pete: Alright, five points of contact. Shocker, it's transferable to other realms. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I already feel like this is funny because it's the premise of kind of our entire podcast, but it's still taken us this long for you to realize, "Wait, everything I teach is also transferable."

Jen: I'm not being cheeky, Pete. It literally never occurred to me that this was a framework for anything other than auditions.

Pete: Fascinating.

Jen: So, let me share with you the five points of contact.

Pete: Yeah. I'm also curious, what was the moment that we realized this?

Jen: I was teaching it during an online workshop that I was running for a bunch of actors I had never met before, so I was kind of like having to dig into it in a new way.

Pete: Interesting.

Jen: And that's when the aha happened. I was like, "Oh, okay. Okay." The five points of contact, I'll tell you how I explain it to the actors.

Pete: Please.

Jen: And then, I'll tell you my aha. Okay, so the five points of contact are the five moments in every single audition where connection is possible. Because these are the five moments in every single audition when information is exchanged, therefore connection is possible. And every single audition follows this arc, although sometimes actors are not aware of this and ignore these opportunities. These opportunities are always there.

Pete: Alright, alright.

Jen: So, point of contact number one, "This is who I am." Point of contact number two, "This is what we're doing." Point of contact number three, "Is everybody ready?" Point of contact number four, "What comes next?" And, point of contact number five, "Goodbye."

Pete: "Goodbye." Alright. So to zoom back one second for a layman...

Jen: Yes.

Pete: I am auditioning. I walk into a room, and there are a series of people in there who are going to be watching my audition.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: And then, we launch into point of contact number one, "This is who I am." Okay.

Jen: "This is who I am."

Pete: And so, it follows that sequential order that you mentioned.

Jen: Yes, it absolutely does. So, here's the aha moment. Anytime you're sitting down to have an important conversation, anytime you're entering into an important meeting, anytime you're delivering a pitch, anytime there's anything high stakes with multiple parties involved, it follows this arc. In an audition, I say, "This is who I am," because there's sort of an expectation that we know who everybody else is, but the actor coming into the room is the one thing that's constantly changing.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Who's walking into the room? But if I was doing this in a meeting, I'd probably change that to, "This is who we are."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Where we share not only our names, but that we take responsibility for like really energetically showing up.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: That I come in as the person I mean to be.

Pete: Yeah. Also, you know, in the context I'm thinking about, you might be, "Who we are, as in the sense that I'm representing this company from this part of the world, or this business."

Jen: That's right.

Pete: I'm looking at this through a meeting context, because that's the world that I know so well. It's also, it feels like this is two-way. That I sort of share, "This is who I am," and then, the other person in the meeting usually shares who they are.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Exactly.

Pete: Yep. "This is what we're doing." I just, I mean, this is a little cheeky and not always true, but I feel like so many meetings lack this point, "This is what we're doing."

Jen: Exactly. And I have to say, a lot of auditions lack this point too. And then, the actor leaves, going, "What just happened in there?"

Pete: "What was the point of that?" Yeah, okay. Alright, okay. So that, I felt cheeky saying it. But no, I think it's like kind of where meetings go wrong, is, no one is clear on what we're doing, or everyone thinks we're doing something completely different than what we're actually doing, or some version of the same thing but not quite aligned, a lack of alignment. Alright, yeah, I follow. "This is what we're doing." Hmm.

Jen: Yeah. And I'll tell you that in my world, there are different kinds of auditions. And I assume there are different kinds of meetings, as well.

Pete: Oh, yeah.

Jen: In one version of an audition, the people who are auditioning you, sent you a big packet of material to learn. And then, you come in. They know what they sent you, but we haven't agreed on what we're starting with or the order of events. And so, it's really helpful to say what we're starting with, "This is what we're doing." And then, there are these other auditions where you select your own material, and nobody but you knows what we're actually doing.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So, it's helpful to tell them.

Pete: Wild. Is, "This is what we're doing," also like, "This is why we're here." Do you think they are the same question?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It is during this point of contact, where we would assert that.

Pete: Great. Great, great, great, great. Okay, alright. I follow those two.

Jen: I want to just take a little like pause and say that, when I say "five points of contact", I am being literal, and I'm talking about eye contact or like fully facing the people you're speaking to, like offering a full-bodied availability for connection.

Pete: Hmm. Right. So, you're saying the contact leads to the connection.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Okay, yeah. My brain wanted to interpret it as "five points of connection". But I guess we're saying the same thing. It's just, the contact creates the connection.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Okay, great. What about the...the one I'm just like trying to work out, I think I could transfer this to a meeting. What about, "Are you ready?"

Jen: So the, "Is everybody ready," is, we set the context for what we're doing.

Pete: Uh-huh.

Jen: And we're in a work environment, and things are happening. So like in my world, people might be having a side conversation, someone has run out to the bathroom, or people are just busy with the paperwork from the person who was previously in the room. So this is what I call "the moment of consensus", where everyone has come to agreement.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: "Now, let's do the thing we said we're going to do," or, "Now, let's talk about the thing," or, "Let's see the pitch," or, "Let's see the audition."

Pete: I love it. Yeah. That makes total sense. "Are you ready? Have you finished writing your email on the side there? Or finished, you know, your lunch while you're sort of listening, but not quite listening? Are you ready for us to dive into the point of why we're here? Yep. Let's get into it." I like that. I just have to say, I'm already three steps in. I have a workshop coming up in one hour, and I am like already putting my introduction to this workshop (because I don't know these people) through this lens. It's so freaking helpful.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: It's so freaking helpful.

Jen: Right? It's so simple, but it's easy to skip steps.

Pete: Oh, it's annoying. I realize the one I often skip, because I have this (like a few of us, I guess, like many people) aversion to speaking about myself, is, "This is who I am." I so often skip that or like I do a really flyover version of that, and I just kind of want to get into the steps two and three, like, "This is what we're doing. Are you ready?" Yeah. Okay, cool. So, what...I feel like I'm just asking you questions in sequential order.

Jen: No, it's great. I love it.

Pete: What about, "What comes next?" So that's, "I've done the thing that we said we were ready to do...," is that right?

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And now, it's like, "What are the next steps?"

Jen: So in my audition context, this is what I call "the moment of silence".

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: And this is when, if you are not the person who is actually in the position to make a decision about what comes next, this is when you fall silent and you let the other person think about what needs to come next.

Pete: Yeah, that's good.

Jen: Yeah. And it's so hard, Pete. Because in my context, what comes next sometimes is, "Goodbye." Like, what comes next? "We're done."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "We're no longer interested in seeing more." And it's just so hard to practice the resilience of falling silent and letting the person who needs to make a decision, make a decision. And sometimes what happens is the actor rushes this, does not allow for the moment of silence and jumps to the, "Goodbye," thus ending their own audition. When, the person behind the table, if they just had a second to think about it, might have asked for an adjustment, might have asked them a question, might have asked for another piece of material. But instead, the actor ended their own audition, because they did not fall silent and let the person think about what comes next.

Pete: That is rich. I mean, this idea of getting comfortable with silence is so far beyond just your audition context. But I could see how it's so real in the audition context. That, you know, when we're having a perceived difficult conversation...and I say "perceived" because what's difficult for me might not be difficult for someone else. And I think so often, and I'm talking about kind of leaders in a corporate setting, we might frame a conversation that we just had as difficult because there was a heap of silence in it. And so, I, the extrovert, might be like, "Wow, that was a really awkward conversation." But the other person, the introvert, might be like, "What a great conversation. I had so much time to think, and answer, and like really compose myself." And so, I just, I'm always fascinated by the different stories we tell ourselves about silence. I have trained myself (and I literally mean, trained myself) to be really comfortable with silence, recognizing it's so necessary, especially in the work that I do when coaching leaders or running workshops. That one must be able to create space for others to share, and that inherently requires silence. But I say "trained" because I am an extrovert, over-talker, people pleaser. So I used to love, and I still do love (like I am right now) speaking too much.

Jen: That's funny. So when you get the answer to, "What comes next,"...which you don't have to ask literally, by the way. The silence is the question.

Pete: Oh, that's so...wait, wait, wait. So, the silence is the question. I feel like is such an aha moment. That so often, we think we need to speak because silence isn't a question or silence is just an uncomfortable waiting period for someone to then speak. But I just, I'm so obsessed with what you just said. "The silence is the question." Oh, I feel like I want to tattoo that on my arm.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: Maybe not. I'm not really a tattoo kind of guy. But, you know what I mean.

Jen: So after we get the answer to that question, if what comes next is not, "Goodbye," if what comes next is, "What else you do you have," or, "Let me ask you a couple questions," or, "Can you go back to that slide? Let's take a look at that again," once we've completed the what comes next, the actual activity that comes next, we have to repeat point of contact number four as many times as it takes until the person who is in the decision-making position says, "What comes next is goodbye." So you might have point of contact number four A, four B, four C.

Pete: I love that, yeah. And I mean, the, "Goodbye," feels obvious, but maybe I'm missing something. Is there a way to say, "Goodbye," in an audition context that we can learn from?

Jen: Well, this is a funny moment. Because there is an agreement, unspoken though it may be, that if you enter an audition room, you will exit it. That's just part of the deal.

Pete: Right. In the same way that if I enter a boardroom to have a meeting or enter a Zoom call to have a meeting, I will exit the boardroom or the Zoom call.

Jen: You will exit it. And yet...

Pete: And yet?

Jen: ...many people take, "Goodbye," very personally, even though it is a natural progression. And that's why I include it, because you want to make sure you hit the, "Goodbye," and that you don't let the, "Goodbye," break your heart or get mislabeled as a rejection. It's simply the natural closing progression of the experience.

Pete: That is so kind of comically obvious, but I think misunderstood. Like, I think just remembering, "Whether this goes well or whether this goes terribly, there is an end, and I will leave this."

Jen: That's right.

Pete: And so, if it doesn't quite go to plan or if it isn't as fulfilling as I thought it would be, whether it's a meeting or an audition, it still reaches the same conclusion. I feel like there's comfort and safety in that...

Jen: Yes.

Pete: ...if we look for it. Rather than, "Oh my god, it's ending," it's like, "Yeah, of course it's ending."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "Because it had to end."

Jen: That is exactly right.

Pete: What's the alternative? We just sit in this audition room for like seven years? What are we doing here? Like, you know what I mean? Oh, this is good. There's a story I use in many workshops, that I think I just want to share. I think I've probably shared on this before, but I feel like you could probably help me translate it into this, where connection didn't happen versus where connection did. I'll try and keep it brief. Basically, I was involved in a series of pitches about ten years ago, and it was like six vendors back-to-back-to-back, pitching at a series of executives. And I was in this project team, and I got to sit in on the pitches. So fascinating. And there was two back-to-back pitches that kind of juxtaposed each other really beautifully. Because the first person came in, put their laptop on the table, opened up their screen, and kind of just launched into a presentation about us and our business and "Here's all of the information about us that you need to know. And here's how awesome we are, and our clients. And us, us, us, and me, me, me, and all of our services and our offerings." And then, right at the end, they kind of said...I guess they almost said, "Are you ready," at the end. I don't know, you could tell me. But at the end, they said, "Does anyone have any questions?" And one executive said, "Oh, yeah. What's really important to us is data sovereignty, which basically means keeping the data within Australia. And we would love to hear how you treat that." And you could see like the blood drain from this person's face, because they just realized they spent forty-five minutes talking about everything except for data sovereignty, which is the one most important thing to this person.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Literally, Jen, the very next session was a different provider who came in, put their laptop on the ground, introduced himself, and said, "I have a presentation, and I'm happy to show you it. And I'm happy to walk through anything that you would love to see. But first, I'd just love to get clear, is there anything you're really hoping to get out of this session?" And the very same executive said the very same thing, "We'd love to hear how you treat data sovereignty," and we went on this like twenty minute conversation, off script for the salesperson, about data sovereignty, and he absolutely nailed it. And that organization was the one that ended up winning the work.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: So, I share this story so often. But I'm realizing, I think it fits with your points of contact.

Jen: It does.

Pete: Do you agree?

Jen: Yes. In fact, Pete, like I could go through and give you all my sub points, which would be many, many episodes. But one of my tips in point of contact number two, is for the actor to ask, "Is there anything you want me to know?"

Pete: Right. Yes, please.

Jen: It's so satisfying to get an answer to that question, "Is there anything you want me to know?" Because if the answer is, "No," then it's carte blanche do whatever you want.

Pete: Right.

Jen: But if the answer is, "Yes," then it's like getting an adjustment or a note or a little gift, right out of the gate.

Pete: A gift, for sure. It's such a gift. Like in this presentation context, literally, this executive just said to you, "If you can cover this, it's the most important thing to us. You'll probably win the work," like that's the hidden message behind the clarifying point. I just, I so agree with you. Yeah. "Is there anything you need me to know?" "Is there anything that's most important to you?" "What does success look like for you in this meeting or this session?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: I think these questions are so important. Huh.

Jen: Okay, I'd love to make a little side point about point of contact number three.

Pete: Alright, please.

Jen: So in the audition world, as your auditions become closer to the finish line, the number of people in the room might grow exponentially.

Pete: Oh, okay.

Jen: And then, it's hard to gauge if everybody's ready.

Pete: Uh-huh.

Jen: And so, because of that, I have some clients who are like, "It was just too hard for me to tell, so I skipped that step." One of the things that...I don't know if this is true in your meeting context, but in an audition context, someone's running the room. And if that person says, "We're ready," then we're ready.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Even if other people don't appear ready.

Pete: Yes, absolutely. I mean, often in the corporate setting, this might be...actually, not necessarily the most senior person in the room. But it's usually, there's someone leading the stream of work or there's someone who's responsible for the outcome of this workshop. And whether that's like a HR director or, you know, a marketing director if it's a marketing meeting, there's usually someone who is owning this work. So yes, if they say, "We're ready," then, especially in a corporate context, often it's sort of incumbent on everyone else to also be ready. Like I said, I have a workshop in an hour, and I'm already thinking about how I might incorporate the five points of contact. I love that, you know, like they could be five seconds, they could be twenty minutes, in some contexts, they could be longer.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: And I just think, it could be like I have an index card where I might even write these five and just kind of remind myself before a meeting to cover off each of the five. Hmm. I have so many more questions too. And I'm like, "Can you apply this in an email context?" But this is probably a...maybe there's a part two coming up.

Jen: Probably. I know, I feel like I have so many little tips and nuggets I want to share about this, so maybe we'll do a part two down the line. But the final little thing I want to share about this is that I find it helpful to understand where I am in the process. Like, if I'm feeling lost and I'm like, "Oh my gosh. This is so stressful, this situation," I can go, "Wait. Which point of contact am I in right now? Oh, we're in, 'What comes next?' That's why I feel stressful. They have the information. I don't. I need to be in listening mode."

Pete: Love that. Yeah.

Jen: Or, you know, "Oh gosh, I had never set up who we are. Maybe next time, I'll make sure to hit that point."

Pete: It feels like a compass. Which I think, especially I imagine in an audition context, in the same way that in a job interview context you might be incredibly nervous, having a framework or a compass to fall back on is hopefully going to give you comfort and reduce some of those nerves, so that you know, literally and figuratively and I guess metaphorically, where you are in the context of this particular job interview / audition / meeting.

Jen: Well, Pete, I think that means that we have now arrived at point of contact number five: the goodbye.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.