The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 296 - The Cringe Test

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I thought it might be fun today for me to go to your website and take a look at it...

Pete: Oh no.

Jen: ...while describing it to the listeners.

Pete: Wow, fun. Alright. Fun for you, maybe. That sounds...that sounds uncomfortable.

Jen: Interesting. Pete, you didn't pass the cringe test, which is actually what I want to talk to you about today.

Pete: Well played. Well played. This is The Long and The (I'm still cringing) Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, that wasn't fair of me to do because you've told me recently that you need to update your website. So I knew what sort of reaction I was going to get, but it was just too perfect to miss the opportunity.

Pete: It was well played. It was well played. I confided in you a vulnerability, and you went and poured sugar and salt on it. So...great.

Jen: Publicly, yeah, which is something I normally don't do. So, let's just say that out loud.

Pete: Right. It's true. It's true. And I don't care. You know I don't care.

Jen: Okay, so the cringe test. The "cringe test" is a phrase I've been using for many, many years. But literally yesterday, I had an entirely new perspective on cringing shared with me. But first, let's go back to: What is the cringe test?

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So the cringe test is when a person, in this case, I'm going to say like a client of mine, comes to me about a challenge they're currently facing. And my clients are primarily actors, so they have public-facing marketing materials. They'll come to me with a challenge, and I'll say, "Oh, I wonder if that's a marketing issue more than a you issue. Let me just go take a look at your website." And then, the reaction is, "Oh, well, you know, I need to do this to the website. I need to do that to the website."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Or someone will say, you know, "Why am I not being seen for these kinds of roles?" And I say, "Well, do you have any footage of you singing anything like that?"

Pete: She's cringing, for those at home.

Jen: "I do, but it's just not where I want it to be." So, that is the cringe test. And when you fail the cringe test, it's obvious that you have work to do to get it to a place where you feel really proud shipping and sharing something.

Pete: Okay, here's my first question: Is it possible to pass the cringe test?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Okay. Really?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: I trust you. I believe you. The reason I ask it is, I feel like I've probably never been really pumped about or comfortable with my website, to use that example because that's how we teed this episode up. And that is despite the fact that, literally last week, someone said to me, "I've been building my website," they're starting their own company, "and I'm really using yours for inspiration, because I love the way that it feels very Pete." You know what they said that was actually one of my favorite compliments? Which was, "Your website says, 'I take my work seriously, but I don't take myself too seriously.'"

Jen: Yeah, that's true.

Pete: And I was like, "Oh my god, that is such a great compliment. Thank you so much." And I still look at my website and go, "Goddamn, I need to change some things. I need a new video. I need to tweak this. I need to change this. I still don't love it." So, I don't know. That's why I asked, "Is it possible? Is it possible to pass the cringe test?" Because like, I have evidence that it's not actually that bad, but in my head, I'm like, "It's so bad."

Jen: Yeah, I definitely have clients who have passed the cringe test, Pete.

Pete: Alright.

Jen: They can't wait for me to see their new website, their new reel, the new video they shot, whatever it might be.

Pete: Good for them.

Jen: But when I have clients who fail the cringe test, what sometimes happens is there's this assumption made (which it sounds like you might be making too) that everything needs to change.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And so, one of the things that I've done with clients...which is very confronting, but it helps us pinpoint where the cringe actually is. So if I'm looking at their website, for example, I'll say, "Let me read you the copy from your website. I'm going to read it out loud to you."

Pete: Oh my god, you're evil.

Jen: But it becomes so obvious where they're uncomfortable.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I'll read a couple sentences, and they're fine. And then, I read the next thing, and they're like, "Oh, yuck. That has to change. That has to change." So going in with a little scalpel is helpful, because you realize that not everything is failing the cringe test. It's usually just a couple key pieces. And I'll tell you, in my experience, those key pieces are the things...it's not that they're bad. It's the things that make the person feel like they're not themselves. It's like the thing that's not in their voice, or the thing, "Someone else said I should do that, but I never really liked that." It's those kinds of things.

Pete: Okay, that's rich. I believe it. I actually think this is where...I mean, obviously, but like this is where this is a helpful tool. I can already see it. Because I can already tell you, I know there's a couple but there's one in particular, I already know this section on my website that's the reason for my cringe in this intro. Which is, oh god, I guess I'm inviting people to go and have a look. But, sure. There's a video on my coaching page, which is fine, but I recorded it in 2017 or 2018 when I first started my business. And I know I look younger, I frame things in a way that I probably wouldn't frame them anymore. So I feel like I've evolved from that person, and yet that's still the peek that's on the website, is that video. It's that one particular video. I just need to re-record the video. Everybody, I just need to re-record the video. I need to re-record the video.

Jen: And see? Out of the cringe test came the action that you can take to alleviate the cringe.

Pete: It's true. It's true. It's true, yeah. I mean, for me, it's a matter of updating. I actually have a folder in my inbox of case studies / testimonials that I have intended to put on my website, that I haven't, so I want to update that. I have a video that I know I need to update, which I just need to do. And so, you're right. The cringe test, as painful as it is, is super effective. Because if you read the homepage on my website, I'd be like, "Yeah, that sounds about right. That sounds like me. That's fine." It's funny how we default to like, "The entire thing needs to be redone." When actually, to your point, it might actually be a sentence, like one sentence.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Hmm. Alright, Waldman. I'm buying it. I'm buying it.

Jen: Well, you've given me the greatest, easiest segue into this next piece that I wanted to share.

Pete: You're welcome.

Jen: So the thing that you are cringing at, your 2017 video, is not about who you were in 2017. It's that the person you were in 2017 is attempting to represent the person you are in 2024.

Pete: Oh my god, yeah. 2024, seven years later. Yeah. Wild.

Jen: Right? Yeah. So the person who made that video in 2017 was crushing it, based on what was going on in 2017.

Pete: Right. Right, right, right, right.

Jen: Right?

Pete: Fair point. Yep.

Jen: Okay. So last night, my friend and client, Kristen Hahn (Broadway's Kristen Hahn), she was hanging out with me and Cate. Cate is my fourteen-year-old daughter. Cate was talking about a video she saw of herself singing from when she was eleven, and she said, "Ugh, it's so cringe. It's so horrible. I never want to see that video again. It's so embarrassing, what I was doing." And Kristen was like, "Cate, aren't you a Swiftie?" And she goes, "Yes, I am the Swiftie." And Kristen says, "Then, you should know what Taylor Swift has to say about cringing at yourself."

Pete: Oh my god. What does she have to say?

Jen: So she told us about Taylor Swift, which I've since researched. This is her commencement address that she gave at NYU in 2022. I'm putting words in her mouth. I'll share a link to it in the Box O' Goodies. But basically, what she said is her career right now is a collection of eras of her creating things that were relevant and right for the person who was creating them at that moment. And she could look back on her career and cringe at all of the lyrics she didn't like or the moments that she had or these things that she wore, and go like, "Oh, that's so embarrassing." But she said something to the effect of, "I was doing the best I could with what I had in that moment. And so, it's not that I need to go back and change the thing that I'm cringing at. I need to change the part of my present self that's doing the cringing."

Pete: Yeah, woah. Woah.

Jen: Which like, kind of blew my mind.

Pete: Yeah, me too. There's like a, almost like a self-compassion in that exercise, of like, "Yeah, meet yourself where you were at when you recorded that video or wore that outfit or did that thing. Because where you were at was, it was 2011 and everyone wore skinny jeans." Like, whatever it is.

Jen: Hey, wait, people aren't wearing skinny jeans anymore? Uh-oh.

Pete: Uh-oh.

Jen: So that Taylor Swift comment, plus the cringe test, has shed a new light on the cringe test for me.

Pete: Mmm-hmm. Say more.

Jen: So when someone fails the cringe test, I think that it is an acknowledgement of, "Wow, I've changed."

Pete: Growth, yeah.

Jen: And the part of you that's cringing knows that you are not representing the changed version of yourself in the present. It's not about the 2017 video. It's that 2024 Pete is not represented.

Pete: I love this. I feel like I could take that to mean, if I cringe, it's a sign that I've grown.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Which is awesome. So it's like, we should celebrate the cringe.

Jen: Right?

Pete: Celebrate the cringe.

Jen: Yes. Celebrate the cringe. Identify the growth. Make something new out of it and share it, so that you can feel proud of sending people to your website or sharing the video or posting the thing, inviting someone into your world.

Pete: Yeah, that's great. Celebrate the cringe. I feel like I've heard a version of this intellectually, but I haven't quite processed it until just now. Like, I think about one of the podcasts that I first ever listened to. Which was probably, gosh, back in 2015 or 2014, years and years and years ago. I think the first ever podcast I listened to was probably the Tim Ferriss Podcast, and he has now had, I think he's had a billion downloads or something obnoxious...

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: ...of his podcast, and continues to evolve and be a really thoughtful, curious interviewer and just person. I find him fascinating. And anyway, he talks every now and then about the fact that when he started the podcast, he committed to doing eight episodes. And his first episode, which he still has publicly available, is literally him, after too many glasses of wine, interviewing like his best friend, Kevin Rose. This guy by the name of Kevin Rose, who's a successful investor, and it's like him interviewing his best friend. And his best friend is like ribbing him halfway through, of like, "Oh, you're going to ask those kinds of questions? Oh, this is one of those kinds of podcasts?" Like he's deliberately poking him, like, "This is terrible," and he keeps it publicly available as like a reminder of where he's come from. So I just, yeah, I feel like there are healthy examples of this everywhere we look, no matter whether we might have someone on a pedestal, like someone who's recorded a billion podcasts. Even they have, of course they have had cringe moments where they look back and go, "My god, what was I thinking? What was I saying? What was I wearing? What was I doing?"

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Yep. Okay, what's really funny about that, Pete, is, you and I have joked about how much we tried to cram into our first episode. We've joked about it so many times.

Pete: The monologue, agh.

Jen: It just makes us laugh. But what's so funny is, I don't feel as cringy about that because we did it together, and I would never cringe on your behalf. Like, I would never cringe at your contribution.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And that has made me gentler with my own contribution. That's interesting.

Pete: Yeah. My favorite feedback from that was a message I got from my friend, that was, "I'm eight minutes into your podcast. I thought you had a co-host?" The first episode, if you look at our transcript in particular, it's like a wall of text of Pete talking.

Jen: And then, I'm sure it's a wall of text of Jen talking, so...

Pete: It was. It was like monologue, monologue, monologue, monologue, which became dialogue. And now, we keep our chunks a little bit smaller.

Jen: Oh my gosh, that is so funny.

Pete: That is true, though. I feel the same, in that I feel less cringe or less worried about the cringe because I've co-created it with you, rather than something I might have created on my own. Interesting.

Jen: Yeah, that is really interesting. Also, you know, time helps. I recently was interviewed on this podcast called Down the Yellow Brick Pod, which is the first interview I've ever done that was exclusively about my time doing the musical Wicked.

Pete: Such a specifically titled podcast, which I imagine is the point.

Jen: Yes. And I had so much fun talking about it. But in preparation for it, I was like, "I don't really remember all of my choices I made about my performance as Nessarose. Like, I probably should," I have a bootleg of it, "I probably should go back and watch it." So, I went back and watched it. And you know, this was 2006. If I watched that in 2007, I would have cringed at every single thing I did. And given all of this distance, you know, I was watching it in 2023, I was like, "Wow. I was good."

Pete: Hmm. Nice.

Jen: "Those were good choices. Like, I might make a different choice if I were to do it now. But like, that's a solid choice."

Pete: Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Jen: Yeah. So that's interesting, also. Like, maybe seven years is not far enough for you to be super generous.

Pete: Yeah. What is the law of diminishing returns when it comes to the time that is required to not feel as cringy? Hmm. I mean, I think the other thing (I speak for myself) when I think about the cringe test, the idea that you would go and read about me and my business, is the fear of your opinion. Right? Like it comes back, to me, of FOPO (fear of people's opinions). And especially when it's someone like you, who I really respect and trust and admire, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't want you to think less of me. Because I really like you." You know? Like versus a stranger who might send me an email about a workshop, like, "Hey, I found your website. And, you know, we'd love you to come run this workshop." And I don't go, "Ooh, you found my website." I'm like, "Oh my god, great. That's great. The website is working. You sent me an email. Let's talk about that." There's a FOPO element.

Jen: Right. Oh, it's so fascinating.

Pete: It is. Fear is fascinating.

Jen: Well, I'll tell you, Pete, I recently took a look at jenwaldman.com, and I would say less than 20% of it passed the cringe test.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: So at the time I built that website, it was very focused on one specific thing. And when I look at it now, I'm like, "I don't even know who that is."

Pete: Oh, wow. Really? I was going to say, you recently did yours...and I remember really liking it.

Jen: Yeah, I did it in the first quarter of 2023. And what I was aiming for when I built it is something I literally don't care about at all anymore, so I am going to be overhauling that puppy.

Pete: That feels like something I need to do too, of like...have you heard of the way back machine?

Jen: No.

Pete: Oh my gosh, you will love this so much. Okay, so listeners, there is a website, a service called the Wayback Machine, W-A-Y-B-A-C-K M-A-C-H-I-N-E. And what this does is it has an archive of every single website on the internet. And you type in the website and you type in what year, and it will show you what their website looked like in that year, so you can see the first ever version of your favorite website.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: It's awesome to look back and go, "Oh wow. In 2017, the person that I admired, their website didn't look that great compared to 2024 standards either." So the Wayback Machine, yeah, I'm putting that in the Box O' Goodies. It's a rabbit hole.

Jen: Oh my gosh. I am about to go down a very long rabbit hole with that. Thank you.

Pete: It's a rabbit hole. Some of the websites, you're like, "Oh my god, that's what we used to design websites like? That's so funny."

Jen: Yep, yep. Cringe.

Pete: Cringe. Alright, so we're committed to updating our website so that we pass the cringe test. And listeners, I guess we've just invited you to use the Wayback Machine to go back to our cringe websites and/or your own websites, and look back at what your past self did. And instead of cringe, try and be proud of what you did, knowing that you did the best you could with the context you had at that particular moment in time.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.