The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 299 - The Whole Story

Transcript:

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: I had a fascinating experience today that I would like to tell you about.

Pete: Alright.

Jen: And it involves what happens when you tell somebody who already knows the whole story, the whole story, as if they've never heard it before.

Pete: Oh my god, I'm laughing because I feel like I've had that moment where I'm halfway through the story and I'm like, "Have I told you this story before? Do you already know this story?" This is good. Alright, I'm fascinated by this. Okay, this is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Well, you just described my whole existence. I feel like all I ever say is, "Have I told you this already?" But in this case, it was very positive.

Pete: Oh, positive? Okay, so that's so funny. Because the reason I shared mine is I have run countless, lost count of the amount of workshops in the last twelve months, and a lot of them have been with the same group. So like, I'm working with the same leadership team over twelve months. And the amount of times that I get into a story in this workshop, and I'm like looking around the room and I'm like, "Have I told this story to this group of people? I can't remember. I can't remember. I can't remember."

Jen: Oh gosh. #relatable.

Pete: "Get some new material, Pete." That's how I talk to myself.

Jen: Okay, well, in this context, this week is the first week of my summer coaching program.

Pete: Oh yeah, we're back.

Jen: And basically, we spend the first two weeks in these one-on-one download sessions where, essentially, I give them the prompt, "Tell me your whole story. I need to know the past. I need to know the present. And I want to understand where you want to go in the future." In many cases, these are people I've worked with before, but I don't know the whole story. Except today, I had two clients come in who I've worked with for a long time. And so, the first one sat down and I said to her, "I feel like I already know everything you're going to say, but just for the sake of consistency, tell me the whole story." And within the first sixty seconds, I learned something new,

Pete: Wow.

Jen: And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is useful." Now, it's possible that I knew some of these details and had forgotten them. But it's also possible that these details were never important enough to her before for her to share, but based on current context are. And then another client came in, who, Pete, I was literally her freshman year professor in college so I've known her a long time, and the same thing happened. I said, "I know the whole story." I mean, I talk to her all the time. I was like, "I know the whole story, but just tell me the whole story from the beginning. Tell me how we got to where we are." And once again, I was like,"Oh my gosh, I did not know these details."

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: It was wild.

Pete: That is wild. So the first thing that comes to my head is how (you alluded to this) because our context changes based on the experiences that we've had over any given period of time, maybe we remember or relate to or give more meaning to certain experiences when someone prompts us with that question.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: It feels a bit like the reason to re-read really good books. Because, you know the experience of when you re-read a really good book and you're like, "Huh. Like, I've never noticed this great chapter before. How have I not noticed this?" And it's because where you are in your life or the context that you've had in the last x period of time has just, for some reason, meant that this chapter is speaking to you more. So I wonder if it's a similar phenomenon, where something's happened that's changed my perception of my story. And so, when I'm prompted with that question, that's the thing I lead with this time.

Jen: It is very possible.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: It's made me think that...well, maybe you and I will do this someday. I'd love to hear you tell me the story of how we got to Episode 300, and I'd love to tell you the story of how we got to Episode 300, because we might learn things that we did not know.

Pete: That is a fun episode. I actually, as you asked that question, I was like, "We should ask each other that question, as an episode."

Jen: Right?

Pete: Maybe that's 301 and 302.

Jen: And then I was like, "Oh, you know, we do a post-mortem after a major project, and we talk about how the project went. But it might be interesting to go back even farther and say, 'What was the impetus for the idea of this project? Like, let's talk through that story. How did we get from that idea to this post-mortem?'"

Pete: Yeah. Two things just appeared in my brain. One is, Brené Brown actually asks this question at the start of her podcast. Which is, I've always found it fascinating and such a big question. But I guess she does that for a reason, because everyone's going to interpret it slightly differently. But the question is something like: "Tell me your story." Which is, I feel like that is an entire episode, on someone's story. And sometimes they're like, "Oh, woof. Wow. Uh, where do I start? You know, because it's a lot." So yeah, that's a fascinating question. Because I actually think, depending on what day it was, I would probably answer differently.

Jen: Right?

Pete: So the other thing that came to mind, apart from that Brené Brown question, is during Covid, I did this little project that was a family podcast, essentially, where I interviewed my mom, my dad, my brother, and my sister.

Jen: I remember that, yeah.

Pete: Yeah, multiple times. And there was a purpose to try and capture some of the, I don't know, wisdom, insights, learnings, lessons, biographies of my family, which I just thought would be a fun thing to do. Anyway, every time I did it, after the fact, I would get a message from my brother or my sister or my mom or my dad, and they'd go, "It's so interesting where my brain went. I didn't even talk about this or this or this or this. But based on the conversation at the time and the question that you asked in the moment, I thought of this one particular random story about that time we went to New Zealand and had an argument about who was going to sleep in what bed at Mount Cook," (a bit of Insider Baseball for the Shepherd family), "and like, I didn't think about all these other things that happened." So I guess it's like, these questions that we ask prompt certain or trigger certain memories, I think, depending on the context of where we're at.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over. Is this making sense?

Jen: Absolutely. So my husband and I often get asked (and I bet you and Tracey do too), "How did you two meet?"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then we sort of like look at each other like, you know, "Which one of us is going to tell the story?" But the truth is, when he tells the story, that is not how I would have told it. I would have told it differently. And I learn about our first meeting every time someone asks us that question.

Pete: It's so true. In fact, I like hearing Tracey answer it, because I'm like, "What do you remember about how we ended up in this situation? Because I have my own story about that." I feel like this is, I can't help but be reminded of sonder. Which, for long-term listeners, you would have heard us say that word probably one hundred and thirty five times. But to recap, sonder is this invented word by this gentleman who created The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows, which is like this awesome, crazy, bizarre online resource where he invents words for sort of things that he thinks should have words. And sonder, if I paraphrase (and I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies), is basically that reminder or realization you have that everyone else around you is living a life as rich and as complex as your own. Everyone has a noise in their head. Everyone has fears and hopes and dreams and stories and aspirations and goals that you just don't have context into and insight into. And he uses a couple of great analogies, of like, you know, when you're driving in a car late at night and there's all these other cars on the road. It's like, every one of those people has their own little story about why they're driving at 2:00 AM. You know, it's this really beautiful concept that I think is like the precursor to empathy. But it just feels like this conversation is a reminder of sonder, that everyone has a story that is contextual and different to them, that no one knows what you know and believes what you believe. And so even when we're really close to people, whether it's clients or friends or family members, even when we might think we know them, it's just this...I mean, you just described this beautiful moment of when you have that sonder of like, "Huh, turns out I don't know everything about this person's story. Isn't that wild?"

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Can I ask, was it clarifying for these two clients? Were they like, "Oh my god, I've never told you this before." Like, how was their reaction to this?

Jen: No. When I said, "Oh, I didn't know that before," they said, "You didn't?" "Yeah, and I understand you better now." Because I'm thinking in the coaching position, I'm like, "I need to understand where this person wants to go, so I can help them get there."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "And some of these little details, in some cases, stories from ten years ago, twenty years ago, give me insight that helps me see how they're looking at the road ahead."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It's really fascinating.

Pete: Even if they don't realize it, do you think?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Like they might say something in passing, and you go, "Oh. That explains, in my mind, why you're behaving in this way or thinking about this thing," and they might not even realize that.

Jen: Yes. And then also, the details that I did know, I knew them when they were happening. And now they're explaining them to me in hindsight, and their hindsight perspective is nothing like the perspective of when it was in the moment. So for example, one of these clients is someone who I have seen through several different agents. They started with one agent, and then they moved to a different agent, and they moved to a different agent. And at the time, those moves were so challenging or painful even. But talking about them now, all these years later, you know, they're using language like, "And that was the best decision I ever made."

Pete: And you're like, "Really? Really?"

Jen: I'm like, "Well, I remember going through that with them, and we haven't like really gone back to talk about it again."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, or they forget the pain of the decision. They're like, "Yeah, it was such an easy decision for me at the time." And you're like, "Was it? Was it really?"

Jen: Exactly. I'm like, "Wow, that's so fascinating."

Pete: Huh. Oh, this is fun.

Jen: So this made me think of an exercise that I know I have shared on this podcast before, that was first introduced to me as a drama therapy exercise by a former client of mine who is now a drama therapist. But I've adapted it for some of the work I do with actors, which is, you play the role of yourself in the future, and then I play the role of you today.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: So you, future self, have accomplished the thing that present-day you are about to set out to accomplish. And then I ask you, essentially, "How did you get where you are? How did you get there?"

Pete: Nice.

Jen: Which is a great exercise for unlocking possibility, and connecting the dots, and sort of like clearing away the noise of fear.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And it seems to me that in this sort of like retrospective version of this, where present-day you is telling the story of past you, it's a very similar outcome. Which is, all the noisy stuff gets cleared away, the connections feel super clear, and there's a lot of permission.

Pete: Wow. That feels like a, yeah, a really powerful framing or way to use this question. "Tell me your whole story, but tell it to me as if you are ten years from now, looking back on this moment."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Woah.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: That's good. That feels Debbie Millman-esque. Debbie Millman is one of my favorite podcasters and writers. And she's done far more than just those two things, but that's how I think of her because that's the form that I consume her content in. But she's got this incredible exercise that, I first came across it on the Tim Ferriss podcast. I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies. Someone has like built a website about it. She has created a card game about this exercise because it got so much traction when she shared it, and it's called The Ten Year Remarkable Life, or Your Remarkable Life in Ten Years. (I'm butchering it, slightly.) But essentially what she describes, and I'm not going to do as good a job of it because she talks about it for about ten minutes, the prompt. She describes this exercise she gave students when she was a lecturer at university, and the exercise is basically, "Close your eyes and pretend like you just woke up. It's ten years from now. So it's 2034 in June, and you've just woken up. And I want you to write as if your life depends on it (because it does), exactly what is happening for you in that moment. Where did you wake up? Who did you wake up next to? What does the weather look like? Go into as much detail as possible." And she goes on to talk about the amount of people who have contacted her, three, five, ten years down the track, and being like, "I just revisited that thing I wrote in your class, and it's scary how accurate it is of my life now."

Jen: Oof.

Pete: Yeah, it's wild. It's like there's this weird, magical element to it. So anyway, I've actually done it a few times. I've got the notepad still locked away in my cupboard, and it's such a wild exercise. But I think it's an example of this, of like, "Tell me your story ten years from now."

Jen: Yes. Will you please drop that in the Box O' Goodies? I want to do that.

Pete: It is so good. I actually bought, she released a card game about it. I've got it. I'm looking at it right now. The Remarkable Card Deck, I think it's called. Yeah, I will. I'll pop that in the Box O' Goodies. Okay. So the other thing that just came to mind for me is, I was running this workshop yesterday with a senior leadership team of a really high-performing company, a scaling startup I guess you could call them. And one of the things that was very evident, because they shared it, was this idea that people were talking past each other, people were talking without listening to each other, and that was creating a whole lot of dysfunction as a leadership team. And so, we did a couple of breakouts where I gave them some prompts. Like, one was, "You're only allowed to ask questions of the person in your break out." And then the other one was like, you know, "You're only allowed to make statements." And I tried a few different things to try and get them to practice active listening, essentially.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Two of these breakouts, they were like ten minutes each. And some of the reflections after the fact were like, "Oh, I learned more about that person in that ten minutes than I knew having worked with them for five years."

Jen: Woah.

Pete: And I was like, "That is...I mean, it's awesome because of the power of that breakout. It's a little depressing if I think about it too much, because you've been working together for so long. But it's amazing. That's great. What a great like result. But it feels like a reminder of how little or how rarely we give ourselves and someone else permission to share some version of their story." And I just walked away from that like, "Was this an output of Covid? Is this an output of the way that work exists at the moment? Or is this just unique to this particular team? I don't know." I feel like it's more of the former and less of the latter, but I just feel like saying out loud that, "Tell me your whole story," is such an interesting gift to give someone.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I feel inclined to say it multiple times. Because I feel like if you're listening to this, because I want to, think about where you might ask someone a version of that question. You are incredible at this, because you get to do it like all day, every day. But in my experience, there are so few opportunities we give ourselves, i.e. we don't give ourselves permission to actually sit with someone and ask a version of this question.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: "Hey, what's going on for you right now?" "Hey, what's your whole story?" "Tell me why you ended up in this role." "Tell me why we are stuck in this situation that we find ourselves in." But then, like you do as a coach, to actually listen to what they're saying.

Jen: Yeah. And I'll just add that one of the things that makes these, "Tell me your whole story," conversations I'm having in these first two weeks of this program so successful, is they have fifty-five minutes to do it. It's not like, "Let's just, you know, take a stroll for as long as we need to." It's, "You have fifty-five minutes. What is the story?"

Pete: Yeah, the constraint. Oh, I love that. Which, yeah, you could even change that constraint. like,

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Of like, "In two minutes, what's your story? In three sentences, what's your story?" Like, there's so much fun you could have with that prompt. That's such a brilliant Jen Waldman prompt. One that you can repeatedly use, clearly, with the same people. One that you can use with colleagues, friends, clients. I love it. "Tell me your whole story." Jen, I'm definitely, I feel like, committed to doing an episode where you and I ask each other that question.

Jen: Ooh, that'll be really fun. That actually might be a great way to do Episodes 301 and 302. We'll see.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.