The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 302 - Maintaining Momentum

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: So after three hundred episodes, I found myself yesterday pondering, "What are questions that I've always wanted to ask you, that I haven't asked you?"

Jen: Oh, okay.

Pete: I was on a four hour flight. I had a bit of time up my sleeve. And I was thinking, "We've got a recording tomorrow. I feel like I need to think about some things I want to ask Jen." And I came up with one that I feel like I should have asked you, but I haven't, and it relates to how you think about setting clients up for success after you've coached them / interacted with them / they've been in one of your classes or workshops. Which I can obviously explain more about, but that is sort of the premise of what I want to talk to you about today.

Jen: Okay. I got a little nervous when you said there was like one question you wanted to ask me. But this one sounds like it will actually be fun to answer. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: As opposed to all my other questions that I usually ask you, which are not fun at all. Okay, so the premise of this is...I don't know if it's a phenomenon, but it's an extremely common experience in my world that I feel like would be in yours, but I don't want to assume anything.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: So this was triggered yesterday by a conversation I had with a Chief People Officer of a very large company down under, and it was a version of a conversation I've had a number of times. And it's sort of, I guess it's a phenomenon or an experience that I'm very aware of and familiar with as a facilitator / leadership development coach / executive coach, whatever you want to call it. And that is, how do you help clients maintain momentum, stay accountable, keep building on the skills they might have learned, once you've left the room? And so what I mean by that, and where this is really common, is when I'm running a workshop. So, I did this two days ago. I ran four workshops in one day, and everyone in the room is super engaged, super enthusiastic. They're doing breakouts. They're practicing the skills. They're coaching one another. They're like, "Oh my god, I get it. This is why it's so important. I need to make some time and some space to do this in person." And then the day finishes and the workshops conclude, and they walk out the door. And then the next day they show up to work, and I know the reality is many of them forget the learnings they had, lose focus, and/or don't quite stay accountable to all that energy and momentum that they had. And so, the conversation I was having yesterday with this Chief People Officer was, "How might you maintain some of that energy / momentum? How do you keep people accountable to the aha moments, to the momentum that they've built in the workshop without you needing to be there, poking them and prodding them and going, 'Hi, I'm here.'" And so, I was thinking about this on the plane. And I was like, "I don't think I've ever asked Jen how she thinks about this." This must be something that is common in your world as well. So, that is the context. Does that make sense? How do you think about this?

Jen: Oh, it's such a good question. It's such a good question. And I think it's a very complicated series of answers.

Pete: Perfect.

Jen: But I think the purest, simplest answer is: You can't. They have to want to be accountable. They have to want to use the things that I'm sharing with them. So my job is to help them identify the accountability, or put it on their calendar, or make a date with me, or encourage them to stay in touch and actually use the channels that we've set up to talk to each other, but I can't force them. And I'm not suggesting that that's what your question implied, like, "How do you force these clients to do this?"

Pete: Totally.

Jen: But like, they have to want it.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: They have to want it.

Pete: So true.

Jen: So, there are a couple things here. First of all, Pete, a trend that I see is that when I say to someone, "And we can go back and forth about this as many times as we need to," or, "Please, use this particular channel to communicate with me. Over-communication is not a possibility. No amount of communication is too much for me. I'm happy to answer any questions," unless I repeat that many, many, many times, they don't believe me.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And that is like some big hurdle.

Pete: "I don't believe you," as in like, 'Ah, Jen's just being polite." You think that's what it is?

Jen: No, it's like, "Well, she says it's not possible to over-communicate. But if I'm the one reaching out to her, I'm definitely going to be doing it too much." And so, I find myself repeating this. Especially right now, because I'm in my summer coaching program. Like every single time I see people, I'm like, "There's no amount of messaging me that is too much messaging."

Pete: Right.

Jen: Like, "Send me every question, every single thing. I want to be in communication." So, part of it is like making them feel like they can stay in touch and that they're not a burden.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So, that's one piece.

Pete: I like that, yeah. I mean, it's shocking. I've done this with this same group, I've been working with the same group for three months now, and there's a hundred and twenty of them. And I say to them, they have my email address and I'm like, "Email me any question, disagreement, thought, idea. Email me a funny GIF, if you really want to. Keep in touch." And I think I've had two emails in three months. And so, this is what's prompting me to have this conversation with you. Like, I absolutely agree with you that the unfortunate reality is we can't force it, obviously, because they need to choose to step into it, practice the skill, ask the question, whatever, themselves. And I guess my question is coming from a place of like, "Am I missing something? Is there a way to frame it? Like, to your point, is it that I'm not repeating it often enough? Or is there a way to approach this that I hadn't thought about before?" And you're always so good at coming up with ideas for these kinds of things, that I hadn't thought about before.

Jen: Well, I have a couple other thoughts about this that may or may not be helpful. We shall see.

Pete: Great.

Jen: So one of the things I do when I'm setting up some of these frameworks or concepts or ideas that I want them to be applying in their life is, I will share (and I'm sure you do too) stories about other clients who I have taught these things to, who have applied them and the successes that they've had. Because it's one thing if I'm like, you know, "Eat your spinach. It's good for you." And it's another thing if I'm like, "This other person hated spinach. And then they ate it, and suddenly they were able to sprint."

Pete: "Have you heard of Popeye?" Yeah.

Jen: Right? So I find having stories as evidence is a real motivating factor, not only because they can see the success at the end, but they can actually envision the practical application of the idea in a real life scenario.

Pete: Love that idea, yeah. I think part of the tension I observe is, whilst it is true that the people that I'm working with are absolutely smart enough and capable enough to translate the learning into an action for themselves, they're also incredibly busy people who have a bunch of other things on their mind. So to give them a literal example of, "This is how Person X has taken this and ran with it, and these are the results," it gives them an easy like, "Oh, I could do that same thing. I could copy that." So, it's trying to make it easier for them to grasp onto. I love that. And stories are such a good way to connect.

Jen: Yeah, stories are really our best teaching tools. Period.

Pete: Truly, yeah. Truly.

Jen: Full stop. Okay, here's something I've been doing for the last several months that has proven much more effective than I had expected, Pete. In my Career Collective, which is a community of actors in an online space who are all working on career strategy together, every month, I introduce a new topic or theme and share some ideas and frameworks I'd like them to implement. Several months ago, I started creating games or contests.

Pete: Here we go.

Jen: And there's a prize if you enter the contest. You don't have to. You can take the frameworks and do it on your own, and you don't have to show anyone your work. But if you want to participate in the gamification, I'll lay out what the game is, and then they have a month to play with the strategy or the framework. And then if they share their work with the group, they enter the contest. And it's so delightful. I'm laughing because I can't believe how much joy it brings. Everyone who has entered whatever the game is, I enter their names into a spinning wheel, and then I record myself spinning the wheel.

Pete: This is great.

Jen: And then it lands on someone, and then like digital confetti bursts and it's like, "Congratulations so and so, you're the winner." And then, they actually get to win some one-on-one private time with me.

Pete: Cool.

Jen: And it's a motivating factor, in that there's actually a real prize. But also, for people who have that competitive spirit, they're like, "Oh, it's a game? Get me in there."

Pete: Yeah. "And I can win?"

Jen: Yep.

Pete: "I can win." And so, to enter the game, you just need to have proven that you've put the framework into action in some way, and then you get an entry? It doesn't mean...you don't judge like, "Who has put it into practice the best?"

Jen: Correct.

Pete: It's just a random spinny wheel, based on the fact that you showed your work.

Jen: Yes. But every month, I design a different game for it, so that also is forcing me to be creative.

Pete: Oh my god. This is good. You're so good at this. Gamify, I love this. So if I'm hearing correctly, what you've said is, Step 1 or Idea 1: Over-communicate. Which is, tell the people that you are serving in whatever capacity (workshop, coaching, whatever), "You can't over-communicate with me. Send me as many emails as you want." And like say that, repeat yourself over and over and over again. I think repetition is something perhaps I could get better at. Second one you mentioned is: Stories. Stories of those that have put this into action and have had some success with it, and/or maybe even stories of people who haven't and then get to the next session and go, "Oh, I forgot to do anything about it." You don't want to be one of those people. So, stories. And then the third one, this is fun, is: Gamify. This one, I feel like is a missing link in my thinking about workshops and keeping folks accountable, which is, "How might I add some creative gamification to keeping people accountable to the thing they said they were going to do?" This is one of the ways I do this, right? One of the theories I have is, if you put yourself on the hook out loud, you're more likely to stay accountable to it. So at the end of every single workshop...I'm trying to think of an exception. But I'm pretty sure at the moment, every single workshop I run, I say some version of, "It's really easy for us to sit around here for half a day or for two hours or for ninety minutes, have a great conversation, come up with some great ideas and some aha moments, and then do nothing with it. And I think that's a waste of your time. So what I want you to do is put yourself on the hook by saying out loud to the person next to you, what is one thing you're going to do based on everything we learned today." And I have some success with that, but I think there's a next layer of that, which is, to your point, adding some gamification to it. But also, I like the idea of proving it. Like, show your work. Not just when we come back next time, you go, "Yeah, I did it. I did my homework." But actually, like, "Where's the proof?"

Jen: So, I have a couple other things that are coming to mind. One is, when I have a client who successfully puts something in play, like I just did this today actually, I say to them, "Can you please share that in the group?" You know, we're on all on a communication platform together. I say, "Because I can share it with them, and they'll read it if it's coming from me. But it'll be more powerful if it comes from you, when you say, 'Hey guys, I just tried this, and this is the result I got or here's what I learned.'" So, having them share with each other instead of me being the only sharer is pretty impactful. And in fact, Pete, I stole something from you a couple of years ago when you told me about your Win Wall.

Pete: Yeah, I've got it right here.

Jen: So, we have Win Wall Wednesday.

Pete: Oh my god, what?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Amazing.

Jen: And so every other Wednesday in the Career Collective, a post goes up that says, "It's Win Wall Wednesday. Share the wins."

Pete: Love it.

Jen: And it's been really, really meaningful. And then in my coaching program, the Win Wall is open 24/7, so people are posting on it anytime there's a little win or a gigantic win, people are sharing it.

Pete: This is great. I love that you're just sending me back an idea that actually came from Tracey, that I still have in my personal life.

Jen: I'm looking at it on your wall.

Pete: Right. But I haven't thought to integrate that into client world. Huh. Interesting.

Jen: And then I have one more thing, which I think is going to be pretty interesting to hear you translate into your world. I could see there's a challenge there that makes this a little easier on my end, in that I have my finger on the pulse of what is happening within our shared industry, and so I'm able to track the scenarios that people could be using these frameworks in.

Pete: Oh.

Jen: And you likely have less access to that information, unless you specifically ask for it. Like, you know, "What are the meetings coming up this week?" But on my end, I know what auditions are coming up. I know what things are opening. I know what, you know, season it is within the theater industry, so I'm sort of able to help connect the dots to some real life things that are happening. And I wonder, how could you gain more access to that kind of information on your end?

Pete: This is so good. This is like the obvious thing that was right in front of me that I hadn't thought of, because I do have access to some versions of this in certain clients, and that is that a lot of leadership teams or executives that I'm working with have really consistent ways of working or operating rhythms. And what that looks like is they often have a one-on-one with their direct reports, for example, that is at a weekly or a fortnightly or sometimes a monthly cadence. That is a forum that I know exists for pretty much any senior leader that has a team. They also have team meetings, which is really common. Frequency can differ, again, but the fact that they all get together as a team and talk about priorities is definitely a reality for almost anyone. And then there's other things, like performance review season that usually happens every six to twelve months, where you review your team's but also your own performance based on what you said you were going to do. There's goal setting, which is also part of that. So I actually know some of these things that are consistent, regardless of which organization you're in. The thing that would change is when they might happen, depending on the organization or the team. But I know some of this already. So this is the moment where I'm like, "Oh, you idiot, Peter. It's right there in front of you. Why did you not think of this earlier?" You know? Like, tying it into...yeah, maybe next time I think about the timing of my workshop, I go, "Oh, performance review season is in three weeks. This would be a beautiful way to tie that into, 'How could you bring this to your performance review?'"

Jen: And it feels like we have to return to the very first point, which is, we can't make people change. They have to want to change. We can't make people get better or stronger or more resilient or more risky or more creative. They have to want that for themselves. My thought is that, at least in my workshops and classes, they wouldn't be there if they didn't want it. So sometimes, I just need to get them to say out loud that they want it.

Pete: That's so good. I love that, yeah. I mean, you're so right. People don't change because we tell them to.

Jen: Right?

Pete: Yeah. They change when they get excited about or they can see the benefit of something that you're helping to teach them, because that will benefit them in the future in some way. Great reminder. Great reminder, and a little call out for Pete to try and stop controlling every single outcome of people who take part in his workshops. Trust the process. Create the conditions for the learning to happen. And let go of the fact that you can't control the outcome.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.