The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 307 - The Thing You Cannot Say

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: So, I think I've stumbled into a way to be more like a New Yorker / be more like Jen Waldman.

Jen: Eat more pizza?

Pete: I mean, that's definitely one of them. But there's this concept that I read in a book that everyone has to buy, which I'll get to, that is everywhere in my life at the moment. And the concept is: Say the thing you think you cannot say. I feel like that's pretty Jen Waldman and pretty New York.

Jen: I resemble that remark. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Say the thing you think you cannot say. I mean, what a prompt.

Jen: Right?

Pete: What a prompt.

Jen: Whew. Where does this come from?

Pete: I'm glad you asked. This comes from the most bookmarked book that exists in our household. Jen is laughing hysterically because I'm holding up this beautiful book called Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building by Claire Hughes Johnson. And this has become a bit of a bible in our household for Tracey and myself. It's a book on leadership. It's a book on scaling people, as the title suggests. It's a book on philosophies and really practical things to think about when you're building a company, running a team, coaching people, involved in any kind of organization, I would say.

Jen: Pete.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: There are about a hundred post-it notes sticking out of this book. It looks like my copy of Thanks for the Feedback. Please, will you take a photo of this and put it in the Box O' Goodies?

Pete: Yes, I will take a photo. And I mean, it's also beautifully color-coordinated in its sticky notes. That's Tracey. That's all Tracey, that's not me. I'm more of a rabbit-ear kind of guy. This is just beautifully bookmarked. Anyway, it's that good a book. It's that good a book. So I'll probably butcher the exact origins of this book, but my recollection of it, having read it a few months ago, is Claire Hughes Johnson is an incredible leader, has worked in the tech community for her whole life, I think, and was the COO of Stripe, which is a massive organization. She was involved in Google really early on, and essentially she was considered to be a really incredible and effective and humanistic leader and manager. And what she did is basically share with everyone, having gone to all these leadership courses and read all these books and worked with all these companies in all these different ways, "Here is my literal handbook, a guidebook for how I think you can be an effective leader / manager." And it is awesome, like I could just talk about this book all day. And one of the concepts of, I don't even know, there'd be over a hundred different concepts. One of them is this idea of saying the thing that you think you cannot say. And so, she goes on to talk about, basically where it comes from is everyone who works in the corporate world...but I feel like this would apply in your world. I feel like everyone listening, hopefully, could relate to some version of this, when you're in a conversation and you start to realize you're talking around a topic. There's something unsaid in the room. There's an elephant, literal or metaphorical. There's something that's not being said. And you kind of, if not said, you do this weird dance where you talk about it without talking about it, and you kind of hope the other person catches what you're throwing but you never actually threw the ball in the first place. So it's like, "Did you get that metaphorical thing that I think I'm trying to say, but I'm not really saying it?" And it's just so unproductive. And so, what she has come up with, this term or this phrase, is to try and give people permission to realize it's okay to acknowledge the thing that you think you cannot say. And so, she talks about using it as essentially like a coaching question or a facilitating question in a meeting, where you might be ten minutes into a conversation, or whatever, fifteen minutes into a meeting, and you go, "Okay, I feel like there's something unsaid at the moment. So Jen, can you just say the thing you think you cannot say? And then, I'll say the thing that I think I cannot say." And like, it's just a way of, "It's okay. Let's just acknowledge it and say it out loud." And I have found this to be obnoxiously helpful.

Jen: This is so great. I love it for so many reasons. But the first reason that I just feel like is worth calling out, is this is a demonstration of leadership. We're talking about a book on leadership. And part of being a leader, as per this rulebook or handbook, is give people the space and permission to say the hard thing.

Pete: Right. Yes.

Jen: It just feels very profound. And when I first heard you say what the topic was going to be, I kind of jumped to the conclusion that we were going to be talking about things that were maybe more personal than work.

Pete: Ah. No, no, no.

Jen: Yeah. And then, this feels like, "Wow, here's a leader saying, 'Please bring your human self into the workplace.'"

Pete: Right, yes. So I think in some contexts, in many contexts, it might be a human thing, a thing that's happening to someone that's maybe outside work, that they can bring in and go, "Oh, the thing I feel like I couldn't say is, I had an argument with my spouse last night and I'm in a really bad mood as a result. Oh, okay, that's what I'm bringing to this meeting." But it's also, I mean, gosh, I've had so many experiences of this. One of the most common as a business owner that works with corporates where you are dealing with certain teams or certain executives or certain parts of the business who have a finite amount of budget for investing in leadership development or coaching, or whatever it ends up being, and at some point in the conversation that I'm having with them, we need to talk about what their budget is or how much this investment, this proposal, this workshop that I'm going to run for them is going to cost. And you can really tell when it's sort of coming up. And everyone...I'm like doing a merry-go-round. No one can see, I'm doing a merry-go-round with my hands. It becomes this like weird dance where no one wants to say what their budget is. No one wants to say how much this is going to cost them, because there's a bit of a, "This all sounds so good. Do we have to get to get to the nitty gritty of cost? Because it feels uncomfortable and I don't want to say it."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so often, I mean, this happens in internal meetings within companies too. It's like each part of the business has different budgets and cost centers and blah, blah, blah. So this is, again, a tool permission to go, "What's the thing you think you cannot say?" "The thing I think I cannot say is our budget is only $10,000, and we really want to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, and it feels like we probably can't with that budget." "Okay, well, what can we do with that budget?" As opposed to, "Why don't you put together some thoughts based on what you think, and then I'll review it? And like, if it's okay, I'll talk to my boss."

Jen: Right.

Pete: It just like, yeah, it's a tool of permission to talk about the thing, which I think expediates so many conversations and it just creates efficiencies.

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, 1,000% yes. You know, it's funny, because you go to budget. My first thought was, "What is the thing that someone typically feels they can't say in the room?" Is, "That idea is not that good."

Pete: Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's good.

Jen: Like, "We're putting a lot of effort into making this thing together."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "And it just might not be that great an idea."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Or like, "We could do this better."

Pete: Mmm. Oh, I love that.

Jen: Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. And it makes me uncomfortable, even just...I'm hiding. It's hard to say it. But oh god, on the other end of that, there's so much relief in like, "Oh, wait, this idea might not be as good as all of the resources we're putting into it. Let's figure this out before we go down this path. What a relief."

Pete: Right. "Yes. Thank you for saying that. Let's realign on what the hell we're actually trying to do. Who's it for? And what's it for?" Like, all those questions. So I had to look this up before this call, because I wanted to remember who said it. It was an Irish poet / philosopher, I believe, George Bernard Shaw.

Jen: Yes, a playwright.

Pete: Playwright, oh my god...okay, so you know him. I'm totally ignorant here. I didn't know who he was. But I knew this quote, and I didn't know who it was from. And the quote is, "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it's actually taken place."

Jen: Wait, wait. Say that again. I need to hear that one more time.

Pete: "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place."

Jen: Oof. Wow.

Pete: I'm obsessed with this quote. And I feel like this is the cousin of, "Say the thing you think you cannot say." Because in the example that you just said, how many times are we involved in a project because someone said, "You've got to get involved in this project," that someone thought was a good idea. And you get a little bit into the way of it and you start to question whether this is actually the right thing that we should be doing at all, and you're starting to wonder if you're comfortable saying that out loud. And someone says, "Don't worry. This project is exactly what we wanted to do, because so and so told us that this was the vision, and this is what we're doing." So the problem is that somewhere along the line, someone thought the communication had happened about why this was important and why we're doing this and why this matters, but someone involved in the project is like, "This makes no sense whatsoever. What are we actually doing?" So that "communication" has taken place, but it's kind of like those situations, you know, where you kind of see two people talking past each other.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: You know? Where you're like, you're having a conversation, but you're kind of having two separate conversations at the same time.

Jen: Yeah, wow. This immediately pings off of Brené Brown's: Clear is kind.

Pete: Right. Yes. So in my mind, the reason I brought that quote up is, you know, if part of the challenge with communication is the illusion that it's taken place, then that is the reason why we need to say the thing we think we cannot say. Because it's very possible that we all think we're aligned or we all think we're communicating to each other, but actually, we haven't been. We're having four separate conversations here.

Jen: Wow, wow, wow. Okay, Pete, often you ask the question (and you can change what the words are, but the structure of the question remains the same), "What's the conversation behind the conversation? What's the question behind the question? What's the comment behind the comment? What's the goal behind the goal?" Like, this feels like it is pulling back the layers and asking you to look at the core of what is happening.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because you might be in a collaboration, and someone just goes, "No, I don't think we should do that." And you go, "Okay. So like, what's behind that? What's behind the no?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: "What is it that has led you to the conclusion that, no, we cannot do that?" AndYou've got to try and get that out of them. And I think you're right. I think this prompt, I mean, I don't know, for some reason it feels...this feels like a strange thing to say. But it feels like a fun, playful prompt to use.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Even though the result of it could be really uncomfortable. Which is, we're all about to say the thing that we think we cannot say. But for some reason, the way it's framed or phrased or approached, maybe it's just because I like Claire Hughes Johnson and her book, it feels better than, I don't know, like, "You're not being truthful. Tell me what you really think." That feels a little more threatening. This feels fun and playful, in a way.

Jen: Yeah. Okay, Pete, I'm having like some serious aha moments while we're talking here. So I've mentioned this on almost every single episode this summer, I'm in the middle of my summer coaching program. And one of the components is, I do these one-on-one strategy sessions with each of my clients. And I ask them, twenty-four hours before our session, to send me their agenda, the things that they want to make sure we talk about. And almost always, the last item on the agenda is this thing.

Pete: Interesting.

Jen: So when I catch it, when I get into the room, I'll say, "Should we start with the elephant in the room? Or do you want to start with the first item on your agenda?" And almost always, they go, "Let's start with the elephant." But they just like needed me to say it.

Pete: That is hilarious. Yeah.

Jen: So that's really fascinating to me, when I'm like, "Ooh, like they kind of said it. But they didn't say it all the way, because it was number four on an agenda of four things."

Pete: Right, right. They hid it in the fourth, and they hoped that you maybe saw it but maybe you didn't see it, "I don't really want to have to have it up front."

Jen: Right. So I'm realizing that saying, "Do you want to start with the elephant," is like the equivalent of, "Say the thing you feel like you can't say." And then, the second big aha moment is during this summer program, I am helping people essentially with their reach out practice, meeting people, connecting, introducing themselves, improving their communication with the people who are already a part of their team. And very often, the initial draft of the reach out feels not so human. And so, I will kind of interview the client and be like, "Well, what exactly do you want them to know? What do you really want to say?" And then in real time, in conversation with me, they'll say something like, "Well, I'm just so afraid that maybe they're losing interest in me as a client." Or like, "Why am I not getting these appointments? Am I doing something wrong? Like, what should I be doing?" But the reach out is like, "Hello, I'd like to have a conversation with you." I'm like, "Well, maybe you could say to them like, 'I'm feeling uneasy about whether or not I'm pulling my own weight in this relationship,' or like, 'I feel like there's some big piece of the puzzle I'm missing. It would be so helpful to hear your take on this.'" And that, saying the thing actually gets a much better response from the person on the other end, because they sense the humanity behind it.

Pete: Yeah, the vulnerability and the humanity. Oh, you made me think of, you know when you're in an audience and someone gets up to give a talk, and they say something along the lines of, "Oh, I'm really nervous. I hate public speaking, and so I've got some notes. I hope that's okay." And you, in the audience, don't all of a sudden go, "Oh, I hope you fail. I hope this goes terribly."

Jen: Right, right. No.

Pete: You, in the audience, you're like leaning in and going, "Oh my god, it's okay. I get that. It's hard. Talking is the worst. In front of a crowd, it can be really difficult. Like, let's like lean in. I really rooting for you. I want this to go well."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I think that's because they said the thing they think they cannot say, which is, "Can I get up in front of a crowd, when I'm about to give a talk, and just acknowledge that I'm a little bit scared, a little bit nervous, a little bit afraid?"

Jen: Yes.

Pete: You don't need to do that every time. But I think in some contexts, it's okay to do that. Or, "We have to have this conversation, and I'm a bit uncomfortable about the fact that we have to have it."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Like, just saying that is going to change the nature of the conversation itself.

Jen: Absolutely. It is such a useful prompt. I'm now looking at like every area of life, where I'm like, "Where could I prompt myself with this?"

Pete: I know. The other night, Tracey and I were having dinner. We are now both working, as opposed to one of us being on parental leave, and that requires a whole lot more juggling. And so, we were checking in, like we're two weeks in on a Sunday night and we're like, "How has the last few weeks been for you?" And Tracey said, 'What's the thing you think you cannot say?" She asked me that question over dinner. And I was like, "Oh, damn, that's a big question."

Jen: Good for you, Tracey.

Pete: Yeah. But it was so helpful. I can't remember what I said, something along the lines of, "I've got travel upcoming. You've got travel upcoming. And I'm nervous about what that juggle is going to look like." And I don't know, I guess I thought I didn't need to say it or couldn't say it because, for whatever random reason. I just, I don't know why, I didn't think I should or could say that out loud.

Jen: Hmm.

Pete: I just feel like this has so many applications. The other one I'm realizing is, sometimes the thing that you think you cannot say is no.

Jen: Oh, woah.

Pete: Or yes, I guess.

Jen: Uh-huh.

Pete: You know? And this is something, again, that's particularly top of mind for me, for us as a family, where boundaries and opportunities and travel and time and expectations about where we are and when is becoming really real for us. And so both Tracey and I, I'll just use us as examples, are having to get better at knowing when and how to say no to certain opportunities. "No, I can't be in Sydney that day because my wife is in Melbourne on that day, and we live in Brisbane and have no family here. So no, I can't come to Sydney. I have to stay home, and I want to look after my son." And so sometimes, especially when there's a, you know, big shiny object in front of you like a new client or a great opportunity, sometimes I think I cannot say no, even though I run my own business. It's like, "It's okay. You're allowed to say no. You're allowed to say no."

Jen: Wow. Wow. I am sort of gobsmacked by that mic drop. Thanks for that.

Pete: I mean, thank Claire Hughes Johnson.

Jen: I'm struck by the fact that, as the leader, saying to someone, "Say the thing you think you cannot say," has the subtext of, "I want to know you. I want to hear you. I value where you're at." And it's just such a beautiful way to engage with people.

Pete: Agreed. Because the thing I'm finding is, no matter who you ask, including if you ask yourself, no matter what day it is or what context you're in, most people, most of the time, have an answer.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.