The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 313 - Others in Action

Transcript:

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: I am feeling fired up. I'm feeling energized. I'm feeling inspired. I'm feeling excited.

Jen: Alright.

Pete: I feel like my brain is on fire. A couple days ago, I attended a workshop hosted by Michael Bungay Stanier and an Australian lady by the name of Leanne Hughes. I know, the Michael Bungay Stanier who wrote The Coaching Habit, which is the best (hands-down) book on coaching, that I give to anyone that will listen to me. And so many learnings, so many ahas, but the one I want to talk to you about today is the benefit of seeing others in your sphere or in your industry, in action. And how that has created, I think, the fired up momentum, energized feeling that I am experiencing right now. So, I want to talk about seeing others in action.

Jen: Yes. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So I feel like the caveat on this whole episode is, "This could be a Pete thing." Because I run my own business. I spend most days in my own head, with my clients and the people that I'm facilitating. But I am essentially, apart from the collaborations I do with people like you and others, I'm essentially a one man band. And so, it's really easy for me to get stuck in my own bubble, stuck in my own head, and forget, A., what it's like to see others in action, B., that other people have different approaches, or even C., that the approach that you're taking to certain things like facilitating a workshop is a good approach, based on seeing people that are world class at this, like Michael Bungay Stanier, in action and going, "Oh, that's actually similar to how I would approach this. That's reassuring."

Jen: Yes.

Pete: So, it could just be a Pete thing. I feel like you're probably pretty good at seeing other people in action, in your world. I imagine, I'm projecting, but I imagine your clients are constantly seeing others in action, which is probably something to talk about. But yes, for me, it was like stepping out of my head and going, "Oh my god, how refreshing is it to see others in action?"

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. I got so excited when you teed this up. Because, I mean, this is literally what my studio does for our clients. It gives them a chance to see other actors in process, working on things, in some cases, trying something for the absolute very first time. And the only other time actors see other actors in process is when they are working with them in a rehearsal, so they don't get to be a true observer because they're at work.

Pete: I feel like this is crazy unique to your world, in the sense that, I can't think of...and again, maybe this is a Pete thing. So listeners, feel free to reach out and tell me I'm wrong. But I can't think of many other, if any other industries where peers get together and share their process. And you get to experience seeing other people's processes, and I just can only imagine how beneficial it is to do that. Like, I experienced it when I went and saw Michael Bungay Stanier. Not that I'm in the same stratosphere as him, but just seeing someone else facilitate a room of really really smart people, I was like, "This is so helpful."

Jen: Right?

Pete: And actually, the context of the workshop was, he was a bit like, "I have this new idea, and I kind of want to test it out with you." So, it wasn't this like highly-polished presentation. It was actually part of his process. It was workshopping an idea, which was so beneficial.

Jen: It is so beneficial. It also can be very validating.

Pete: Right.

Jen: It can also be a way to give yourself permission to ask questions that you wouldn't have allowed yourself to answer when you were only watching yourself and your own work.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Just the other day in class, literally yesterday, I had a client in there who I had seen privately a couple days before, and I had given him this exercise to do. And, you know, he did it in our private coaching. And then, I gave that same exercise to someone in class, and he was like, "Oh, I see it now. Because I'm not actually doing it and I'm watching what it does, I see what you were trying to get me to do." And I was like, "Ah, that's great." I mean, that's the point of being in class.

Pete: That's so good. Yeah. So I'm curious, from your perspective, do you try and do this in your world? Like, do you try and see others in action, in terms of people teaching classes or facilitating workshops? Or like, how do you think about this?

Jen: Well, to be perfectly honest, Pete, finding a way in to having the opportunity to do that has been very challenging. And it is one of like the secret objectives for me in hosting the teachers retreat earlier this year, was, I got to witness all these other teachers teaching, and that is incredibly instructive.

Pete: Yeah, I was thinking of that retreat that you created as I asked that question. I mean, I think that, again, that challenge you shared, which is, "It's really hard to actually find a space where you can do that," I think that is true of most industries and most professions, at least the leaders that I work with in companies. I'm like thinking about this now. There is no class that they attend after work to talk to other leaders about how they approached a difficult conversation that day, or how they had to influence a board member to help them sign off on this proposal that they had to do for this project they wanted to do. Like, the things that they're doing on the day-to-day are so often in isolation, or maybe with the help of their manager or someone else. But the thinking and the process and the context of seeing someone else do the thing you're trying to do, or a version of the thing you're trying to do, it doesn't exist in many places. And so, that's the thing I'm like thinking about, personally and selfishly, is, "How do I put myself in these situations more often? And / or, how do we create these conditions for our clients in the workshops that we run?" (Not to get too meta.)

Jen: Well, I think it's a really important question. Because I don't know anyone who doesn't want to get better at what they do, but unless you have a seed of an idea to work on and turn into something, we're just sort of like recycling our own habits and our own ways over and over again.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: This is actually bringing up two things for me. One: I won't name the book title, but there is a book that I really hate. It is a textbook on acting. And "hate" is a strong word, and I do mean to use it. And once a year, I re-read this book.

Pete: Oh my god.

Jen: In order to see if I've changed my mind about anything, and also to strengthen my conviction in my beliefs. So, hearing this other acting teacher talk about acting in the written form really does help me get a little better at what I do. And then, the other thing that came up for me is: This really speaks to the power of community, or like seeking community.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I've often said in my own studio community, that part of being in a community means we are voluntarily learning and growing together.

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: And seeking out environments where people are there to learn and grow, it's just like, you can't even put a dollar value on that. It is invaluable.

Pete: I totally agree. I totally agree. Community, and the other one I was thinking of is like co-facilitation or co-creation with people, partnering with people on things. Because inherent in partnering with people on things or co-creating something with someone else is you get to see and learn from their process. I'm thinking of a few examples. One is: I think one of the most successful experiments we did when I was head coach of altMBA (and it wasn't my brainchild, it actually came from the community of coaches that we had) was, instead of having coaches always do one-on-ones with students as part of the workshop, which was a really core part of the workshop, we introduced this thing called Coach Desk, which was two coaches and one student for half an hour. And the students got unbelievable value out of it, because they had two different coaches working with them to knot out one particular thing. But the thing, the sort of unintentional benefit we discovered was how much coaches loved it, like absolutely loved it. Because I got to get on a coach call with someone like a Kirsty Stark or an Ian Scott or a Jen Waldman or a Mary Freer, or whoever it was, and see how they coach.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And you would ask a question that perhaps I didn't ask. Or I would hear what the person said, and I'd be like, "Where do I take this?" And then, someone would jump in with a question, and you'd go, "Oh, that was a great question. Like, that was really cool." So you got to see, in real time, what it was like to hear from other coaches. Now, we, you and I, have actually taken that idea and done it ourselves with clients before, and done two-on-one coaching to great effect with the client. But selfishly, I just love seeing you in action as a coach. Like, it's so fun.

Jen: Same. Same.

Pete: So fun. So, I'm thinking about those. And then, the other one was, you know, like co-facilitating events, workshops, things that you and I have built together. I mean, I guess selfishly as well, this podcast is, for me, a version of, I get to see every week how your brain thinks about a certain challenge, which is another version of this.

Jen: You know, I'm thinking right now about the rare and precious times where we get to actually see someone's process and like how they got to where they are. Like, I'm thinking right now of the Beatles documentary.

Pete: Oh, right. Right, right.

Jen: Where, you see their entire songwriting process. Like, we know the finished product. But to see like how they approach it and where they struggle, I imagine that songwriters actually value the Beatles more because they got to see the process and the stumbling blocks, rather than only seeing the polish. And I'm just like, I'm thinking about, one of the reasons why we probably don't get the opportunity to see each other in action more is because it is threatening.

Pete: Right. There's a vulnerability there.

Jen: Right. And I don't know how to, you know, wave my magic wand and make all of society change and want to be completely transparent. But I do think that there are companies, organizations, people who are actively seeking this. For example, any organization that hires you is looking to create that opportunity for their employees. And so, as a self-employed person, which you are, how do you create that opportunity for your employee, which is you?

Pete: Right, right. Yeah. I think you're so right about the benefit of seeing another person's process, so much of the benefit can be seeing the humanity of it or the mess of it. I don't mean "mess" in a negative sense. I mean the like messy, scrappy part of figuring things out. I don't think Michael would mind me saying, he was sharing this new idea that he had and he was sort of framing it as like, "Look, I don't really know if this is a good idea. I'm sort of road testing this idea with you. I've got my whiteboard. I like would love to let you tell me what you think of this idea." And it was this like vulnerable, "Here's this thing that I'm thinking about. Do you think it's a good idea," which is so rare. And it was so beneficial. And I felt like so much more connected to him because we saw behind the curtain of his thinking process, rather than, "Here is this perfectly polished, mapped out idea that I've already turned into a beautiful slide deck and book." And like, I can't relate to that, to be honest. But I can relate to being like, "Hey, I sketched this thing down on a napkin."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: "Jen, like, does this thing mean anything to you? Can we hash this out a little bit?" Like, I really relate to that. And so, I agree. I mean, I'm thinking of the book Show Your Work, by Austin Kleon, which is sort of a beautiful little creative book about the case for why it's important to share your process.

Jen: That is a great book. Okay, I have an example and I have a thought. I'll do the example first. So once upon a time, I was having coffee with a friend of mine who was a talent agent. And we were talking about how if her clients could just look at each other's audition tapes, everyone's tapes would get better. But that would not be an appropriate thing for her to do, is like, send clients each other's tapes. But I was like, "But I can." So in my online community platform, The Career Collective, just last month, we did this thing called The Self-Tape Showcase, where everyone had to put forward one of their auditions so that everyone else could see what other people were doing, and improve their own process. What was fascinating is the fear in the eyes of all the people, when I said that was what the challenge was going to be. And I realized it was because they hadn't really seen other people's tapes before, so they didn't know if what they were doing was excellent or competitive or whatever. So, that's just like a real-life example. And then, the thought that I had was just like, it's worth it, I think, to seek out communities and / or mastermind groups and / or conferences or association events where you can meet not just like-minded people but like industry people.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And talk about the way things are going, without all of the slick and polish. And I think, in my experience going to conferences, I'm like very turned off by the super polished, slick thing. And I've never been able to put my finger on why, but this episode has helped me identify that.

Pete: So true, so true. So, responding to those two things. The first is, I love this idea of you creating the space for your clients to share their process and see others in action. And I appreciate the generous call out you said earlier about an organization that hires me. Because you're right, I'm sort of realizing in this moment, is a big part of the way I try and approach a lot of my leadership workshops is, sometimes I'll literally say, "The goal isn't for me to be the one that shares the thing that is the most helpful thing for you to learn today. The goal is for me to create the conditions for you to hopefully get that from one another. And so, when we're talking about, 'How do we think about influencing a senior stakeholder,' or when we're talking about, 'How are we coaching people,' or we're talking about, 'How do we have a difficult conversation,' for sure, I have some ideas and some frameworks, and I will share them. But first, how do you think about solving these things? Talk to the person next to you about it." And often, it's like, "Oh my god, Jen has this framework for difficult conversations that I've never heard before."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "That's so cool. I'm going to borrow that." So yeah, it's like giving people the space to share and connect those things. I so agree with that, yeah. And on that space / conferences / events that sometimes feel too polished, I think what I'm taking from this conversation, and I'm realizing it happened actually in the workshop that I was in, was, maybe if there's a way to ask the question of someone, "Can you tell me about your process for creating this workshop? Or can you tell me about how you went about creating this presentation, because I'd love to know." To actually ask people. And some will be comfortable, and some might not be. But one of the things in the Q&A that Michael and Leanne did so well, was they were like, "If you want to ask us about how we co-created this workshop, please do."

Jen: Okay.

Pete: And so, people did. And I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting. It's actually a bit like how Jen and I work. You know, they're asynchronous because they were in different time zones. They had a Google Doc." And I was like, "That's so cool that other people do that too. That's how we work." You know? So actually, if they're not offering up, "Can you ask us about this," I think that there might be an opportunity to start to ask people about their process. And maybe part of that is, "Look, I'm happy to share mine as well, obviously."

Jen: Yeah, reciprocate. Well, Pete, I think we accidentally just basically did a commercial for both of our businesses. Because what we both do is create spaces where other people can see colleagues in action, observe, learn, try things on for size, and get better.

Pete: I totally agree. And the challenge that I am walking away with is: And how do I do this for myself?

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.