The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 314 - Role Play

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I want to tell you about this role playing situation I'm doing with some of my clients, in an effort to help them quell certain fears.

Pete: Role playing to quell fears. As someone who dances with a fear (or five), I'm interested in this. I also just feel like, what better group of humans to do role play than your clients? I mean, come on. It feels like you're cheating. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Alright, Pete.

Pete: Hit me.

Jen: So, often when I'm role playing with my clients, I'm literally playing the other role that exists in their script. And we're, you know, acting together. So it's been kind of fun to explore and experiment with them playing themself, and I get to play someone else in their life.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: So how this came up is, I have a client who I was preparing for some upcoming agent meetings.

Pete: Okay. Yep.

Jen: And this client and her previous agent broke up a while ago, under perfectly fine terms. And she had been putting off prepping for these other agent meetings (this came out in our conversation) because she was so afraid that they were going to ask her why she and the previous agent broke up, and did she do something wrong? This was like the big, scary fear that was going on in her mind.

Pete: Yeah, yeah. This whole self-inflicted story that she was creating, by the sound of it.

Jen: Exactly. So I was like, "Well, you know what? Let's act it out. I'm going to ask you the question that you fear the most, and let's answer it." So I said something to the tune of, "Why did you and your previous agent break up? Did you do something wrong?" And then, she answered the question, and it was fine. Because the answer to the question was, "No, we just decided that we weren't the right fit. I loved working with them. We just both decided it was time to move on." And then, at the end, she was like, "Wait a minute. Wait, that was so easy. And all I did was tell the truth." I'm like, "Right." But this big, looming, scary thing had been holding her back. So I've tried this with a couple other clients since then, where they say, "Well, I'm just worried that this is going to happen, or that this is going to happen," and I'm like, "Let's act it out right now."

Pete: Right. Ooh, I like this. Okay, the first thing it reminds me of is a pre-mortem.

Jen: Oh, yeah.

Pete: Which...oh dear, I think this was one of the things we talked about in our very first episode, Episode One - Getting Started.

Jen: I believe you're right about that. We talked about a thousand things in that first episode.

Pete: We did. Seven thousand topics covered in one episode, yeah.

Jen: One of which is a pre-mortem.

Pete: So we've never done a stand-alone episode on pre-mortems, which feels like, you know, illegal.

Jen: We should add that to the list.

Pete: Yeah. So, the pre-mortem...because I don't ever expect anyone who's been listening for this long to remember what we talked about in Episode One. The pre-mortem is this concept that has come about, I've learned about it in sort of project management circles within corporate companies. So it's sort of a different take on a post-mortem, which a lot of people, especially working in technology companies or working in an agile methodology (which is corporate lingo for a way of working), where you might reflect on a project at the end, do a little post-mortem and go, "What went well? What didn't go so well? And what were the things that we made mistakes on, that we could do better?" And well, most people are pretty familiar with that. The pre-mortem is to sort of do that up front. In the context that I know it, it's to look at an upcoming project that you might be embarking on as a business or as a leader or as an individual, and to essentially ask yourself, "If this was to go terribly and to blow up and to not deliver on what we wanted to deliver on, what would have happened?" And to, like, literally write it out or talk it out. (It doesn't really matter what medium it takes.) And to think of all of the possibilities and permeations of what could go wrong, and why, and how. And then, once you've done that, well, A., hopefully you feel a little better about just putting it somewhere. But then also, B., you start to look at, "Okay, and then how might we mitigate the likelihood of this happening?" So if the worst thing that could happen is, "This project starts a fire, which burns down the building and ruins our office," I don't know, I'm making this up, "...how do we avoid that happening? Well, maybe we don't start a fire. Maybe we do something else instead." That's a terrible example. But the point is, let's look at what worst case looks like, and then let's look at how we might mitigate that. And that is a pre-mortem, so it feels like a version of that.

Jen: Yeah, it absolutely is. And in this case, we're just acting it out instead of writing it down. And what I find fascinating about that is, it is reminding me of something I talk about all of the time in my studio, which is, "There's a difference between theory and practice. And we can theorize and think all we want, but until we figure out how to activate that, we won't actually be able to practice it." And so, this is maybe like taking the pre-mortem a step further, like they've thought about it.

Pete: Totally. Like, let's do a fire drill.

Jen: Yeah, exactly. Let's put it into practice and see what happens. The other thing that is just fascinating is, on the other side of this, the immediate traction she was able to gain in moving herself forward was like quite unbelievable.

Pete: Yeah. That's so good.

Jen: And her excitement about it, like, "Oh, okay. Like, god forbid this thing happens," ...which, maybe this is another point. After we did that little role playing, we sort of talked through like, "But now let's logically look at it for a second, now that we've like dealt with the emotional piece. Like, you're sitting down to meet with people who have invited you into their office because someone they know and trust has said the two of you would be a great match. Like, why would they sit down and intentionally berate or insult you? Like, it's just, it's not logical." But we sort of needed to move past the emotional piece, in order to see that.

Pete: Right. Yeah. And just, I mean, so relatable. Like, how we all do this. We catastrophize. We create stories. We assume the worst of the things that we are about to do because of whatever, fear of what other people are going to think, or the fear of failure, or the fear of navigating a difficult conversation, whatever it ends up being. So, a couple things that you reminded me of. One is, I'm going to have to dig up and put it in the Box O' Goodies, who this quote is attributed to...because I feel like it's one of those quotes that gets attributed to twelve different people. It is, "Everything that you want is on the other side of fear." I hear that in what you said about the momentum or the inspiration or the traction (I think was the word you used) that she experienced once she'd said out loud and done the role play of the thing that she thought was so scary. It was quite freeing. It's almost like you take off this metaphorical backpack of bricks and go, "Oh wow, it's so much easier to walk without a backpack of bricks on my back."

Jen: Right.

Pete: The other thing I was thinking of is the brilliant episode that you teed up not that long ago, called Get On Your Feet. I just feel like that was reminiscent of what you said, which is the practical versus the theoretical. Is, it's so true that you could theorize what the worst case would be and get some benefit from that, a bit like a pre-mortem, but to actually get on your feet and pretend like it just happened is so different and so much more active and practical, I think. I love that idea of, "If it's a conversation that you fear, have the conversation in a moot environment. Have the conversation as a role play. It's unlikely to be as terrifying as you thought it would be."

Jen: As you're talking, I'm realizing there's a flip side of this too.

Pete: Oh my god, yes.

Jen: Because sometimes, we are afraid that people are not going to like us, and we're going to fail or we're going to do something wrong. With my clients, and maybe you experience this with your clients as well, there's also this fear that they're going to put their work in front of someone they really admire, and that person is going to praise them. And they do not know how they're going to react when like, you know, they're auditioning for say their favorite composer, and the composer says something like...I've actually had this happen to a client before, where the writer slams their hands down on the table and says, "Where have you been all my life?"

Pete: Oh my god.

Jen: Right? So, that is a fear that sometimes keeps people small.

Pete: Oh, wow.

Jen: It's, "I don't know if I'm worthy of that." This is imposter syndrome, really. As I'm saying this out loud, I'm like, "Oh, we need Pete's Imposter Two-Step, which was also a very early episode."

Pete: Very true.

Jen: This Box O' Goodies is going to be a time capsule.

Pete: We should probably revisit some of these, yeah.

Jen: But it's this imposter thing, of like, "Well, I'm going to play small, because I'm afraid they won't like me. I'm going to play small, because I'm afraid they will like me. I'm just going to play small."

Pete: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Because it's comfortable, safer. Because it's known, I guess. The thing I was just, I was thinking about this great quote I heard recently around change, and how, you know, a lot of change is requiring us to say no to like something that we currently do or currently have. Like, to commit to changing something is also committing to saying, "I'm giving up this part of me," or, "I'm giving up this thing that I have." And this thing that I have might be super comfy. Even though I might complain about it, I know it, and it's comfy. And it's not being praised by the person that I admire, because I don't know what that would be like, and that feels kind of terrifying. Or like, what would that sound like? And what I would say back? And would I make a fool of myself, and trip over and hit my head on the table as I go to say thank you and shake their hand? Like, all of those ridiculous stories that we tell ourselves are, you know, based out of a fear of the change, I think.

Jen: Yeah. It's making me think of this other client...wow, this is Jen's story time today.

Pete: This is great. We love story time with Jen.

Jen: But I had another client who I introduced to an agent, actually. And he was so concerned that the agent would like him, and then he would have to make a decision about what to do.

Pete: Right.

Jen: You know? This is real. This is like, this could keep you in a state of inaction.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So in that case, now that I've sort of had this aha moment that I can play it out, I could just say like, "Instead of thinking about it, let's act it out. I think you're great. I'd love to have you as a client. I'd like to sign you." And then, have him work out what he could actually say. And what's been fascinating, as I've been doing this with some clients in the last week, they always have an answer.

Pete: Yeah. Fascinating. I was going to ask you, do you think the role play can apply to the positive side of this too? Which is, "What if they say something really positive?" I totally agree.

Jen: Absolutely.

Pete: "Act it out. What would you say? How would you navigate this?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: You know, it feels very aligned with your coaching philosophy (and mine too), which is that the person you're interacting with or coaching has the answer to the thing they think they're stuck on or the thing they're afraid of. You just need to give them a way to get it out of their head. And so, like you said, they know what to say. They have an answer. They just haven't, I don't know, given themselves permission or just had the context in which they've been asked to say it out loud. So, it's a tool of permission. Which I think we talk about a lot, these tools of permission that we can give to ourselves and to clients.

Jen: Indeed.

Pete: The other thing that popped into my head was, I feel like the interesting thing about this role play exercise is it's not actually about preparing you to navigate the conversation when it happens.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because, as we've talked about, especially in the worst case scenario, it's very unlikely that it's actually going to happen. It's very likely that we've created this worst case in our head, that's not actually going to happen or has a very small probability of happening. And so, it's a role play not necessarily as a preparation for when you have to navigate it. It's actually just a role play so that you can let go of or relinquish the grip that you have on this fear.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: It's a way to, to your point, gain traction on all of the other things that you need to do, rather than actually prepare you for when you have to have that conversation.

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. Because if you are prepared for your worst case scenario and you know how you would handle that, you are ready, willing, and able to receive anything better than that.

Pete: Right.

Jen: I'm just thinking about the number of clients who, over the years...you know, I'm a big advocate for reaching out and telling people when they've done work that you think is great and meaningful, to just like always let people know when you loved their work. And I have had dozens, and maybe even at this point, it's safe to say hundreds of clients be like, "I couldn't possibly do that. I can't do that. That is too scary." And I go like, "What's the big deal?" And they go, "Well, what if the person doesn't want to hear from me?" So now, I would say, "Okay, let's act this out. You tell me that you loved my work." Let's try it now, Pete. Why don't you tell me you loved my work?

Pete: "Jen, I've listened to every single episode of your podcast. I've been to your classes in New York. I have followed your studio for over five years. And I love everything that you do. I love all of your work. And I just want to say thank you for putting what you put into the world, into the world."

Jen: "Who do think you are? How could you have possibly reached out to me, to tell me that? Go away."

Pete: "Alright. Roger that. You won't hear from me again."

Jen: So, there it is. That's the worst case scenario.

Pete: It's also comical. Because it's like, this is so unlikely to happen in this scenario.

Jen: Exactly. And I think that that is part of what the role playing helps illuminate, is like, "Oh, this is unlikely to happen."

Pete: Yeah. It sort of adds levity, in a way. Like, the obnoxiousness of hearing it out loud and giving voice to your fear almost makes you look at it and laugh. For me, in that context, which was a slightly comical example, but it makes me look at it and go, "That's ridiculous. I'm just going to move on. I'm just going to send the reach out, because she's not going to say that."

Jen: Right. Right.

Pete: Yeah. The other thing that the pre-mortem does...which, we probably mentioned this also in Episode One but it bears repeating, which was the Tim Ferriss TED talk, where he talked about fear setting and writing down your greatest fears. But then the column next to it, I think it was, was, "What are the things you could do to get you back to where you are, if the worst case actually happened?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: So, that's sort of like the next step in a pre-mortem. And not necessarily...well, it could be part of a role play. Which is, "Say that that was a reality. Am I worse off than I was prior to me doing that reach out?" I don't think so. Maybe I'm a little ego damaged, because the person that I admire just said she doesn't want to hear from me again. It's a little damaging. "How would I get back to where I am now?" Well, I kind of don't really need to do anything else to get back. I still am the same person, in the same context, with the same things at my disposal. I just have a fun story about how Jen Waldman was so rude to me, even though I told her that I loved all of her work.

Jen: Right. I mean, I would probably turn it into a podcast episode, so I'd even be better off.

Pete: Right. You have content, here we go. Oh, that's so true.

Jen: I'm feeling a need to make a distinction between like your greatest doomsday fear and then actual potentially predictable challenges one might face. Like, I'm thinking about this now in terms of like, you know, I help a lot of clients negotiate contracts.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And very often, in negotiating contracts, the client will say, "Can you do this?" And then, the person says, "No, we can't do that." That's not a greatest fear scenario. That is an actual, legitimate possibility. And so, I'm curious now, like could this role playing also be useful there, in just like practicing the response to all of the possibilities? So that might be a future episode, but that just came up for me.

Pete: I think so. And I think you're right. Especially, I'm thinking about it in a leadership context, where it's the difficult and the uncomfortable and the tension-filled moments, not necessarily the greatest fears, like, "I have to give this person some feedback, and I'm a little bit uncomfortable about it," or, "I have to say no to this leader, and they're pretty senior, because I have this other priority that I need to take care of, and I'm uncomfortable about that." So, I think that role playing could still be helpful. And I actually think that it's more likely we're going to be stuck on things that feel, you know, "lowercase f" fear, as opposed to our greatest "capital "F" Fear. So yeah, maybe a future episode.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Well, we didn't cover as many topics as we did in Episode One...thank god. We've come a long way, Jen. We've come a long way.

Jen: Thank goodness. Thank goodness. My greatest fear is that one of our listeners right now is like, "You people! Keep it straight! Pick one darn topic and stick to it through the end of the episode, already!" What would you say to that, Peter Shepherd?

Pete: I'd say, that is The Long and The Short Of It.