The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 315 - Six Years

Transcript:

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: So at the time of recording this, in Australia, it's the 4th of October, which means it's two days after our six-year podcast anniversary. Can you believe it?

Jen: Holy cow, six years of every single week releasing a podcast.

Pete: We haven't missed a week.

Jen: Wow, that's amazing. Good for us.

Pete: Isn't that wild?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Good for us. And the crowd goes wild...

Jen: And good for our listeners, some of whom have been here since day one.

Pete: Thank you. We love you, listeners. I can't believe that there are those that are still listening, after listening to Episode One and actually wanting to continue to listen. So, I think that we should reflect on six years. And I think the way that we could do that is thinking about perhaps six things that we wish we knew six years ago, on perhaps the 2nd of October, 2018. If we cast our minds back to what feels like a lifetime ago, what do we wish we knew six years ago?

Jen: Oh, wow. Yeah, lessons learned. Okay. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So I'm ruling out obvious things, like, "There'll be a pandemic coming, Pete. You should buy some Apple stocks, Pete. You should buy some Amazon stocks," like all those silly things that one might wish on themselves as a time traveler. I'm thinking about this through the lens of podcast-related, collaboration-related, which I imagine is what you are as well. Does that sound right?

Jen: Yeah, that sounds right.

Pete: Great.

Jen: So, how should we do this?

Pete: I guess we alternate, going back and forward. You've got one, I've got one. We'll play some tennis.

Jen: Okay, great. You want to go first?

Pete: Sure. Sure, sure, sure. Okay, these are in no particular order. And full disclosure, listeners, in true to form style, we gave ourselves approximately three minutes to come up with these prior to pressing record. So I think the first thing that came to mind for me was: I feel like I have no good ideas, 90% of the time, probably 97% of the time. And yet, there'll still be an idea. And so, the reason this came to mind for me was I was thinking about, Seth Godin has famously written...and I'll include a link in the Box O' Goodies for those that aren't familiar. He's famously written about how there's no such thing as writer's block. People are just afraid of doing bad writing. And I feel like the principle of ideas block, perhaps, is true. That if you had told me six years ago, "You'll be able to come up with a new take on a topic for six years, knowing that you also will probably feel like many of the ideas aren't actually very good. In fact, most of the time, you'll feel like they're not very good," I would like, I wouldn't have believed you. That, to me, is wild. So it will feel like your ideas aren't that good, and yet, you will still get your ideas to a point where you're comfortable releasing them. And shocker, the ones that you think aren't very good are often the ones we get feedback on, of like, "Oh my god, I loved that episode." It's like, "Really? Okay. Wow. That's wild."

Jen: Yeah, that really resonates. And it's just such a good reminder, because it's easy to stop yourself when you're like, "I don't know what's going to come out, so I might as well not do it."

Pete: Right.

Jen: And as a person who tries to be creative every day (sometimes failing, but like really trying), you've got to get something out there to give yourself something to respond to.

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: Otherwise, no forward motion.

Pete: Yeah. So maybe, I guess another way of framing that is like, you know, there's not that many of our three hundred-plus episodes where I'm like, "We nailed that episode." There's really not that many.

Jen: Right. So true. Actually, you know, we used to have, on the front end, we would say to each other like, "Oh, I don't know if this is really an episode." Lately, I've noticed that on the back end, we finish and we're like, "And that was The Long and The Short Of It," and then, one of us goes, "I don't know if that was an episode. We'll have to listen and see."

Pete: Oh, dear. So, that hasn't changed in six years. We're still not sure. We're still not sure.

Jen: But the lesson learned is that it'll happen anyway, even though you're not sure.

Pete: Exactly. What about yours? What was your first one?

Jen: Okay. Six years ago, I wish we knew that people would listen. I think that has been such a constant surprise. And I actually think it's a lesson I still need to learn, is that: People will listen to the podcast. We started with our already built-in audience. But Pete, I remember at one point you showed me a map of where people were listening, and it was like a hundred and ten countries. I'm like, "How did these people find us?" It's amazing to me that people will listen. Now, on the one hand, I wonder what I would have done differently if I knew during Episode One that people were actually going to listen to it. And then, on the other hand, I'm like, "But because I didn't know people were going to listen, maybe there was a freedom in that." I don't know.

Pete: I mean, I remember that map well. And I remember there was a listener in Antarctica. We had like five downloads from Antarctica.

Jen: So crazy.

Pete: So hilarious. Also, I had this experience (I shared with you offline yesterday) at Melbourne Airport. This is so wild. I was in the baby change area, changing Oliver's nappy, my son, and talking to him as I was changing it. And a lady came out of the other room in this little nursing area / change area designed for families and kids, and said, "I recognize that voice. You're Peter Shepherd." And I had absolutely no idea who this person was. Never met her in my life. And she had this gorgeous little baby girl, Isla. And she said, "I listen to your podcast. I love the podcast you have with Jen." And I was like, "Oh my god, I don't really know what to say. This is the wildest thing that's ever happened to me." And I was like, "I just texted Jen five minutes ago to say, 'Happy six years.'" So, it was...that experience happened yesterday, and I'm still surprised. I was like, "Oh, someone's listening."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: "And someone just happened to be in the changing room." It was wild. So yes, people listening. Crazy.

Jen: That is so wild. I had an experience several years ago...I think I told you about this. I was on the subway, getting off at Times Square (like the most populated place), and a guy comes up to me and he says, "I hope this isn't awkward, but you're in my ears right now."

Pete: Oh. That's great. Oh, I love that.

Jen: Ah, wild. Okay, so we've conquered two out of six. What is the third thing you wish we knew when we started podcasting six years ago?

Pete: I don't know if this is counter to what you just said or maybe a build on what you just said, but if I thought about overly ambitious and excited Pete six years ago, starting a podcast with this brilliant human that I'd only known for a year, one of the things I think I wish I knew was: You won't make millions of dollars or be the next Debbie Millman and Tim Ferriss. And that's okay.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Because the benefit won't come from that. The benefit will come from the fact that even if no one listened, and even though this costs you money and isn't making you millions of dollars...I don't know if Debbie and Tim are making millions, I'm just kind of guessing...you will get more out of it because of the fact that there's benefit in you having this conversation with Jen, regardless of whether anyone listens, regardless of whether there's a massive Spotify deal on the table. (Which there's not.) So I don't know if that would have been helpful to know, because maybe I wouldn't have wanted to do it. But I feel like, you know, twenty-eight year-old Pete was probably thinking like, "Oh, maybe eventually we'll get this massive deal and we will be like the next Debbie Millman. And like, wouldn't that be wild? We'd be traveling the world, doing this podcast." And that hasn't panned out, and that's okay. In fact, that's a great thing, because it means that we both are able to maintain the balance and the life and the work that we have and we love. So I think that's kind of a funny counter or aside to, "People will listen," but also, "Not so many people that you'll be like the most popular podcast of all time."

Jen: Yeah. You know what's so funny, Pete? I don't know that I went into this ever thinking it was going to be something big. It's bigger, to me, than I thought it was going to be. But something that I'm really interested in, and I think I can say proud of, is, you and I never took on any advertisers. Like, we never sold ad space on this show. And maybe someday, we will. But up until this point, it just hadn't felt right or necessary, and it gives us so much creative control over what we're doing.

Pete: Agreed, yeah.

Jen: I like my creative control.

Pete: Me too. And I've heard so many podcasters say they "had" to take a deal, because the podcast cost them money to maintain.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I'm kind of like, that still doesn't mean you have to. Like, you could do things that cost you money, and that's okay.

Jen: Yeah. I mean, we've footed the bill for this podcast together, and I have never once felt even an ounce of resentment about that. I'm happy to do it.

Pete: Likewise. So, that was my somewhat related one to yours. What's next?

Jen: So the next one is something I knew going into the podcast, but had only ever tested in the short term. So I guess, on the one hand, I'm breaking the rule because I kind of knew it. But what I wrote down here is: Get it on the calendar. Because what I would not have believed at the beginning of this, is that six years later, we would have not missed a week, and we would never be stressed about missing a week.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Because we pre-plan all of these meetings, and we don't miss them.

Pete: That's so true.

Jen: So really, like, the key to us still being here six years later is: We scheduled it.

Pete: Yeah. And I guess the "we" is important too. There's a collaboration and an accountability we have with one another.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: But I think that's so true. Like, I mean, I've had workout regimes that have come and gone in the last six years.

Jen: Me too.

Pete: I've had friendships and relationships that have come and gone in the last six years. I've had periods that I feel so busy that I don't want to add anything over the last six years. And I've said no to things because of that, over the last six years. I've had a child in the last six years. And yet, we literally have always, always had a new episode to release.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Which is wild. Which doesn't mean we've recorded every week, but we have always had the ability to release something.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: There's no way I would have believed that six years ago.

Jen: Yeah, me too. So, I take it back. I didn't break the rule.

Pete: Also, telling Pete to put things on the calendar six years ago, I would have been like, "Shut up. I don't need to put this on the calendar."

Jen: Aha!

Pete: "I don't plan."

Jen: Wow.

Pete: Oh, that was a good one. I don't know how to frame this third one properly, so it'll sound a little clunky. But it's something like: Being in person and recording in person will be harder the longer this goes on, because of life and logistics, so cherish it when it happens.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: When we started this podcast, I was going to New York two to three times a year.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And not taking it for granted, but I was able to do so quite easily, because of many reasons and many factors and my lifestyle looked very different. And so, I haven't been back in two years at this point.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: And I'm like, "That's sad. I used to go like three times a year." And so, there's something about cherishing it when you're in person. But then like, conversely, you can do this remotely for six years.

Jen: Yes, you can.

Pete: Using Zoom and QuickTime. That is literally our technology stack. Like, it is not a studio. I mean, we have recorded in some ridiculous places with ridiculous setups. One of my favorites was you in the closet, like your your sister's wardrobe or something.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: We have made it work in the most absurd fashion.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: And so, I don't know, like reminding myself six years ago to a really cherish when you're in person with Jen and with our audience that we used to have come and watch. Our actual audience would be there in person, a portion of them. And, you'll be able to do it remotely just as well. So yeah, like just to tell myself that would have been really cool. I think, six years ago, I don't know if I would have believed you. That yeah, again, you can make it work that long remotely.

Jen: Pete, do you remember when my tripod for my mic broke? Okay, listeners, you have to picture this...

Pete: Oh yeah, I've got a video. I'm going to put it in the Box O' Goodies.

Jen: Oh, please put it in there. It is so funny. I have no mic stand, okay? So I had to jerry-rig some way to get the mic near my mouth without touching it. So I took a...I think it was a stool.

Pete: It was a stool. It was a stool.

Jen: And I like wrapped the cord of the mic, so the mic was dangling, and then I had to lay sideways to get my mouth near the mic.

Pete: Aha, yep. Yep. I remember it well.

Jen: Oh my gosh. And still, that episode got released.

Pete: Right. And I mean, there was also me, at the very beginning, it was like 4am or 5am and I was in that tiny little room that was pitch black. Remember that?

Jen: Pitch black.

Pete: It was like pitch black, like, "What am I doing? What am I doing?" Oh, dear.

Jen: Oh my gosh. Those were the days.

Pete: Those were the days. Those were the days. What's number six? What else have you got?

Jen: So, this is a lesson I've been learning over and over and over again. I probably knew it in my gut, but I didn't trust it when we first started recording. And honestly, I don't think that I have fully expressed this lesson in our episodes until maybe a year ago. And the lesson is: Talk about what you actually know. Because early in our podcasting, I was really trying not to be so theater and actor and artist specific, to try to make sense of everything for everyone. But the truth is, the listeners can figure it out.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: If they're not actors and I use the term "objective", they can figure out what I'm talking about. Or if I'm talking about an audition, they can relate it to a job interview. Like, they are very smart people. And I think I was scared of being too specific, and scared maybe that what I knew wasn't going to be interesting enough. So I wish I had known that the listeners could figure it out, and I could just speak freely about what I know and am passionate about.

Pete: Yes. I feel a little called out with this one. I feel like, in the early days, I was trying to sound like a smart podcaster, someone who's really smart and has all these ideas. And I think more recently, I have gone the opposite path, which is like, "Here are all of the things that I am not good at and struggling with, and I have no idea what I'm doing. Please help?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: Which, I think is a...I think it's a makes for a better listening experience, as I'm not pretending like I'm some super smart person who has things figured out. I am absolutely the opposite. That's a good one.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I have a random bonus. Like, this is such a stupid, tactical one, but it just feels like such a thing that I wish we did. And that is: Have an email newsletter from the get go.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Have a way to stay in touch with your community, outside of the podcast. Because what you don't know six years ago, Pete, is some very high profile people with some very large audiences (including Simon Sinek and his millions of LinkedIn followers) are going to share this podcast with people. And if they do that and you don't have a mechanism for people to stay in touch other than just the podcast, maybe there'll be a missed opportunity to create a bigger community.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And yes, there was that missed opportunity.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: So having our Box O' Goodies from day dot, I feel like would have been awesome. But anyway, it took us thirty-odd episodes to figure that out.

Jen: Well, I'm actually glad you brought up the Box O' Goodies. Because just the other day, I got a message from someone saying, "I look forward to your newsletter every week." And I was like, "I have a newsletter every week?" And I was like, "Oh, she's referencing the Box O' Goodies." Like, I don't even know if she's listening to the podcast, but she's just enjoying the Box O' Goodies. So I'm going say to the listeners, maybe for those of you who are newer to us, every week, we email out a Box O' Goodies. For other podcasts, they have show notes. We don't really have show notes. We have more like after thoughts.

Pete: I love it, how you call them after thoughts. It's so true.

Jen: And so, the Box O' Goodies is related to the topic of the episode, but it's not necessarily always what we've talked about. So if you like connecting dots, sign up for the Box O' Goodies. It's free.

Pete: It is. You can do so at thelongandtheshortpodcast.com Well, six plus one ideas from six years of podcasting.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It's so wild. I mean, it's so wild to think about who we were and what's happened six years ago, not just within these podcasting lessons but just like life lessons and life events that have changed.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: I mean, it's wild to think, personally, how much my life has changed, how many crazy things I experienced. And yet, you and our listeners and this podcast have remained a constant, which I am so grateful for. It's been so grounding and so humbling and so exciting, and at times annoying and hard, and mostly just joyful to be able to spend time with you once a week (or every other week, if we're busy) and recording and laughing and using stools as mic stands and just trying to learn as much as I can from one of the smartest people I've ever met. So thanks, Jen.

Jen: Wow. Likewise. I mean, it's been a total delight. I remember that your mom has a saying, which is, "You'll never regret a swim."

Pete: So true. Yeah.

Jen: And I feel like, basically the ultimate lesson I've learned from six years of podcasting with you is: You'll never regret a recording session.

Pete: Oh, I like that. Mum, there's a new quote for you to put on the fridge at home. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.