The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 324 - Small Fish Mindset

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Are you familiar with the phrase, "Big fish, small pond?"

Pete: Oh yeah, yeah. Yes, I am. I am.

Jen: Well, today I want to talk about seeking out the opposite, "Small fish, big pond."

Pete: I already love this metaphor, and where you're going with this. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I was trying to think of a funny visual or metaphor for the fact that you are a very small fish compared to me being a large fish, in the context of our height, but it didn't quite play out.

Jen: Yeah. I'm like, you know, your standard goldfish-bowl goldfish, and you're like a koi pond-size fish. So, anyway...

Pete: Oh, that's funny. Anyhoo...

Jen: Back on track. So the reason I've been thinking about this is, I was recently invited to join, I guess you could call it a mastermind group, with a bunch of folks who are running very successful businesses, like far more successful than mine. And you already know this because I asked you for your advice about whether or not I should accept the invitation, and we both agreed pretty much in the same moment that I should. But I had the hesitation about being the small fish in the big pond, and then you reframed that for me as a really positive thing, like, "When was the last time you were the small fish in the big pond?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: So anyway, I wanted to talk about that. And since you made that comment to me, I've actually started thinking of hacks to create more opportunities like that in life.

Pete: Mmm. I got a bit jealous in hearing you describe it. It was one of those moments where you reflect on your own experience and you go, "Huh, when's the last time I felt like a small fish in a big pond?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: And maybe it's not even a big pond, but maybe it's just a small fish in a small pond. That, the way I interpreted your question was, "Should I continue to, perhaps, hang out with a community of people who are just starting out and starting their business?" (Which, there's nothing wrong with that. We've all just had to start a business and started somewhere.) "Or is there something to gain from being around people who have more well-established businesses?" And I was just like thinking about it, going, "Well, I feel like, given where you are, there's so much more to learn and gain from being around people that are running more established businesses."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So now, I'm already going, "You've been called out, Pete, somehow. That you also need to figure out, what's your pond and why aren't you being more small?"

Jen: Right? And so, the irony here is the amount of impostery feelings I had associated with this invitation was really funny. But they did not present as imposter. They really presented as Questioner for me. So I came up instantly with twenty reasons why I should say no.

Pete: Oh, that's funny.

Jen: "These people are running totally different kinds of businesses. They probably do online marketing. These are probably people who don't need to know their customers, one on one. They don't have to care about people's personal development and personal life. My business is so much more one on one, intimate. I'm actually like up in your business when I'm working with you." So I came up with all of these reasons. And then, it's like I have to sort of take my own advice, "So what? You could learn from everything. So, someone runs a business in a way that you would never. Isn't that teaching you something about yourself and who you want to be? Or maybe, someone's going to unlock a possibility that you never would have seen for yourself."

Pete: Totally. Or like we do in this podcast, you'll find connective tissue between other people's businesses and the way they serve their clients, and how you can serve yours. For sure, there will be ways.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So, I'm excited about this for you. And like I said, like a little bit jealous.

Jen: I do think that as we get older, we tend to...I should really only speak for myself. As I get older, I tend to enjoy the groups I'm already in.

Pete: Oh, for sure. I mean, there's real comfort in them.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: The thing that's coming to mind for me is how this is such a great lesson and reminder in humility and how helpful it is to remind oneself that we don't know everything, and that we should be in environments that remind us of that.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And allow us to develop more ideas, or to learn more things, to get out of our comfort zone, to show up with a growth mindset. I've wrote down four names already of I would consider high-profile well-established leaders, people that I admire, that I've seen show up in forums, like workshops that I'm running. And in seeing them show up, I've gone, "Firstly, it's sort of remarkable that they're here. Why would they be here? They have nothing to learn from me or from this group." But also, B., the follow up from that was, "But I absolutely love that they do, because they're pushing themselves to go to a place that one could easily dismiss them from needing to go to. And in doing so, learning things, discovering things, meeting new people. That, they're not too big for any given pond." It's almost like the...I don't know if this is the other side of the same coin, where it's when we think we're so big that we're not going to fit into a pond. But it's like actually, in any pond, there are things that we can learn and discover. And so, what does it look like to put yourself in those situations, to not overemphasize how big you are as a fish?

Jen: Well, this connects to the first sort of hack that came to mind, because I witnessed this today at my studio. I had a class today, one of my very small classes, seven people and three hours. It's amazing. And they're getting up on their feet and working, and they're singing the roof off the place, and it's just incredible. And these are people who are working at the top of their field. Broadway actors, current Broadway shows, these people are no joke. So I guess you could say then, that they're big fish.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: But the way they showed up in class today was, "What happens if I try something that's so risky, that it makes me feel like a smaller fish?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: So we had one person get up, and take a huge risk that was incredibly successful. And then immediately, someone else in the class was like, "Wow. This is now making me ask myself, 'What could I do? Like, how could I challenge myself that way?'" So I think maybe part of the life hack is, look at the groups or the experiences that you're already engaged in and ask yourself, "How could I make myself a smaller fish in this pond? Like, how could I make myself have to stretch more, have to push more?" And then, of course, it raises the bar for everyone. It's contagious.

Pete: Right. Okay, I want to call this small fish mindset.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And I mean it in the most...I mean, I can feel myself even trying to have a negative connotation with that. But I think what we're saying is, in the most positive, beautiful, generous, fun, and creative way, what we can do is adopt a small fish mindset.

Jen: Love it.

Pete: I mean, I mentioned I wrote down four names...a couple of them, just off the top of my head, to share with the listeners and with you. Like, I have participated in workshops, read books, and attended events where Michael Bungay Stanier is the keynote speaker, is the lead facilitator, is the person that wrote the best book, hands down, on coaching, I believe, which is called The Coaching Habit. And I've run a workshop where, unbeknownst to me until halfway through the workshop, Michael Bungay Stanier was in the audience. And I was like, "What the hell are you doing? You have nothing to learn from me or from the community that we're in." This was part of a larger community that I was facilitating the workshop for, and he adopted the small fish mindset. He showed up with a little bit of curiosity and said, "I wonder what I could learn from these folks over here at Akimbo. I wonder what they're doing over here." And I love that so much. The second was a very similar experience with Wes Kao, who is one of the most brilliant thought leaders...

Jen: Brilliant.

Pete: ...as it relates to kind of marketing and leadership. Butyou know, she's very much, I would say, in the Seth Godin vein of genius. And unsurprisingly, used to co-collaborate with him and helped set up the altMBA. And I was running a workshop many, many years later, and Wes showed up in the audience. And I was like, "Wes, what the hell? You literally had helped design the altMBA. Like, why are you here?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: And she was adopting a small fish mindset. The third one, just really quick, because I just love these examples. One of my now good friends, Bianca Chatfield...this is so funny because I realize it's not a sport in America, but she was an Australian Netballer.

Jen: Huh?

Pete: Which, I do not even know how to begin to describe Netball to all of our American listeners. All you need to know is, it's an international sport, very popular here in Australia, particularly among females. And to be in the Australian team is like, you're in the top .5%.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: Now, she had adopted all sorts of leadership positions in that role. She had become, you know, very well-renowned, and is still regarded in the media as a very very high-profile, influential, smart thinker as it relates to leadership and sports teams. She showed up in a learning environment.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: She showed up in the altMBA with a bunch of others, people like you and I, that just happened to be wanting to learn about what this altMBA is and, "How can I learn from other people?" And in doing so, her and I became really close and became friends. But the fact that she even showed up, I was just like, "That is awesome, that someone as publicly identifiable as Bianca Chatfield is going to show up and learn something from this. This is great. It's the small fish mindset, in the best possible way." Which is funny, because she's like 190-something centimeters tall. Small fish mindset.

Jen: I can't do that metric conversion in my head, but I'm going to assume that means tall.

Pete: She's only just a little bit shorter than I am.

Jen: Oh, wow. Okay.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So, Pete, I had a little bit of an aha moment with myself just now that I would like to share with you. And I would like for you to tell me what the heck.

Pete: Great.

Jen: For maybe ten years now, I've had this commitment to myself that every year, I'm going to invest time and money in one significant learning experience. One year, it was the altMBA. Another year, it was my writing retreat. Another year, it was Amy Porterfield's digital course academy. On and on and on. So every year, I decide to make an investment in my own self-improvement. So, this thing I've been invited to would qualify as that investment for 2025. I realized, the reason I didn't see it that way is because in all of the other cases, I've sought it out. This is the first time they've sought me out.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And so, the emotional piece of it feels completely different.

Pete: Fascinating. The opt in versus the...I mean, you still have to opt in. But the invitation versus the opt in creates a different amount of tension in your brain. Fascinating.

Jen: Yes, where I'm like, "Oh. They want me to be a part of this. Huh. What's wrong with them?" That is really like where my brain was going, like, "Something about this isn't right."

Pete: That's so interesting, how we do that. I mean to say "we", because I think that's a universal experience of getting invited to do something and you go, "Well, must be a pretty low barrier for entry if I'm getting invited."

Jen: Right? But they've told me what the barrier for entry is, and I'm like, "Oh, I barely meet the criteria. But okay."

Pete: But you do. But you meet the criteria.

Jen: Yeah. Fascinating.

Pete: Yeah. Okay, so now I want to know, how and where can I find...it's not even finding ponds that are big or small. It's, how do I adopt this small fish mindset?

Jen: Right. Coming back to Michael Bungay Stanier, for a second.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: The reason you saw him as big fish was because the workshop you were leading is content that he already has a certain degree of expertise in. If you were running a How To Bake Sourdough Bread workshop, it wouldn't have felt that surprising. So, I'm thinking that one of the key pieces to adopting the small fish mindset is being willing to release your hold on your expert label in your own area of expertise.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And open up to new possibilities, new perspectives. So it seems to me that one of the defining features of small fish mindset is actually working within an area that you already have a pretty good handle on.

Pete: Yeah. Which, for many people, would feel almost counterintuitive,

Jen: Right.

Pete: "What could I possibly have to learn from being in an environment of people that I know the community quite well, or know the structure of how they're going to run this thing quite well?" So, I agree. I mean, in my mind, that's the ultimate sign of humility in action.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Is, "While I have spent my career developing expertise in a certain area, one of the things I still recognize is, I don't know everything. So I'm going to show up here, and try and find out some more, and learn some more." And that is just, ah, it's admirable. I'm so inspired by the fact that people do that.

Jen: Yeah. So maybe the first step, Pete, is being able to name where your expertise lies.

Pete: Yeah. For sure.

Jen: Or maybe "expertise" isn't even the right word, but "significant experience". Because I wouldn't call myself an expert business owner, but I've been in business for twenty years, so I do have significant experience.

Pete: Yeah. I love that distinction, experience versus expertise. Because I totally agree. I push back on the word "expert" all the time. So, I think you're right. It's about understanding where you have experience, and reminding yourself that just because you have experience doesn't mean you don't have anything to learn. That opportunities to learn things that you discover are everywhere, if you're willing to notice them. And I'm thinking now about my experience, going to like the flip side, which was my experience this year of going to Michael Bungay Stanier's event. And some of my learnings were meta learnings of just how he showed up and facilitated, not actually what he was talking about.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so, I'm thinking about the technique of how you run something like that. Maybe that's why it's useful to see other people in action, because everyone takes a different approach, which you can learn from. So yeah, understanding what you have experience in, and recognizing that everyone's got experience in something that you can still learn from.

Jen: Well, Pete, I think I am publicly committing that, come January 2025, I'm going to accept this invitation to be a small fish in the big pond, and see what it looks like to adopt my small fish mindset and really give myself permission to grow. I shall report back throughout the year.

Pete: My gosh, please do. Please do. And as you commit to that, one of the things it made me realize is perhaps the reason adopting a small fish mindset can feel so scary and overwhelming is the fear of what other people might think of us.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It's back to our old friend FOPO. And how, if I have experience in something and other people know that I have that experience, then how are they going to perceive me for being in this pond?

Jen: Right.

Pete: And what we're saying is, having been the person who's seen the person who has the experience, I actually do the opposite. I don't think, "What the hell is that person doing here?" I actually think, "That's amazing, that that person is here. I want to adopt that mindset." So once again, the vulnerability, the fear is actually the sign that we need to do the thing that we're avoiding doing.

Jen: And once again, that is The Long and The Short Of it.