The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 325 - Curiosity

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: We have a few favorite formats that we like to bust out every now and then, you and I.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And so today, I want to leverage one of those. And the format is, can you believe we don't have an episode that's about ...?

Jen: Oh, it's so familiar. So, what is it today?

Pete: I did a Control-F search in every one of our podcasts because I do not believe it, because I think it's actually inherent in literally every single episode we have, is somewhat about this topic. But there's not this word in any of the titles of any of our podcasts.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: And the word is "curiosity".

Jen: What?

Pete: Do the search. I just did it before.

Jen: Color me curious. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I'm already questioning my Control-F, but I swear, I swear to you, I couldn't find the word "curiosity" or "curious" in any of our titles of our podcasts.

Jen: That is wild. Isn't our tagline, "A podcast for curious people."

Pete: It is our tagline, which we created about six years ago and haven't revisited. But yes, it is.

Jen: Wow, that's crazy.

Pete: I agree, it's crazy. It's also our tagline. It's also, I think like I said, the backbone of this entire project. This entire podcast is, I think, a version of us showing up as curious people, asking one another questions, and sharing ideas. I feel like it'scuriosity in action.

Jen: Wow. Wild.

Pete: In any case, curiosity in action is sort of what I'll talk about. Basically what happened, I've been coaching this brilliant CEO in the last few months, and she's been making great strides, and we've been having these amazing conversations that I feel like I'm getting almost more out of than she is. And we've been having this great back and forward. And at the end of one of our sessions recently, she said, "Huh, feels like a lot of this just comes down to more curiosity, doesn't it?" And I was like, "Yes!" You know? I was like screaming from the top of the room, like, "Yes, it is everything." I feel like all of the things that I think about as it relates to being a better leader, for example, I could strip back to this one fundamental posture or skill or mental model of being more curious.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And so, I want to talk to you about that. I'm curious (there it is again) how you think curiosity plays out in your world, because I feel like there may be some differences but also some rhymes. And so, I just want to talk to you about what curiosity is as a skill and how we might practice it more.

Jen: I can just say out of the gate that curiosity is such a necessary element in the work I do, because theater is a collaborative art form. So if you are not curious about your collaborator's ideas, not really going to go very far together, are you?

Pete: I'm so glad I brought this up, because you say that so matter of fact and obviously. Like, of course. In order for collaborations to be effective, one needs to be curious.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Which, I believe. And I understand that in your world, people accept that as almost a given. And do you know how many leaders I've worked with, that they say to me something like, "We need our team to be more collaborative," and they don't realize that one of the reasons that people aren't being collaborative is because no one's being curious about what other people are doing, because everyone's just worried about their own work, their own pile of things to do.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: So already, I feel like, yeah, that's not mind blowing for you. But it actually kind of can be for certain corporates and certain people out there.

Jen: Wow, wow, wow. That is very interesting to me. Okay, so here's one of my favorite tips that I give my actor clients before they go into a callback for a show they're auditioning for. Before you do the material, ask the person who is behind the table (or the people), "Is there anything you want me to know?"

Pete: Nice.

Jen: That way, if they say, "Yes," you've opened yourself to something they want you to know.

Pete: New information, right.

Jen: You've shared that you're curious, and that you're willing to hear, and you're willing to implement their idea. And if they say, "No. Show us what you've got," that lets you know they are the curious ones in that moment. They want to see what you're going to do before they offer you an adjustment. And I just, I love that because it brings curiosity into the space without...I don't want to say without fear, but like without weirdness.

Pete: Right. I am obsessed with this. One of the stories that reminds me of is when I was, many years ago, I was sitting in a boardroom as part of a series of pitches where external software providers were pitching the company that I was working for about some software that we needed to use at our company. Anyway, point was, I got to sit through like five pitches in a row from separate vendors. And what was fascinating was the different approaches that people took. And there was a back-to-back almost like juxtaposition that I found particularly, in hindsight, hilarious. The first was someone who came in, plugged in their laptop, put a presentation up, and just talked at us for about forty-five minutes about features, the benefits, the awesome clients they work with, their methodology, their team, and it was just like, "Here is everything you need to know about us." It was one-way. It was essentially a monologue. And then, at the end of that, they said, "Have you got any questions?" And one of the executives said, "Yeah. We have this specific technological question about data sovereignty. Can you help us understand how you treat it?" And you could see the blood drain from the person's face, because he just realized, "I spent forty-five minutes talking about everything except the number one most important thing."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Cut to...almost like a script, cut to the very next session. The person came in, put their laptop down, and said, "Before we get started, I'd love to understand, is there anything in particular you want to make sure we get out of today?" And the same executive said the same thing, "Data sovereignty is really important to us. Can you help us understand how you treat that?" And we spent like twenty-five minutes talking about data sovereignty before we even got into the pre-written spiel that she had put together. It was like a version of what you described, which is, if you start a meeting or if you start an audition, can you actually say to someone, "What does success look like for you in this collaboration or in this thing that we're trying to do," and actually hear the answer?

Jen: Right.

Pete: I feel like this is so obvious, but it's not.

Jen: Oh, yes.

Pete: So, that is me just ranting at you about your own example. I love what I hear from you, is, yes, in order to collaborate effectively, we need to be curious.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: The skill behind effective collaboration is curiosity.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I also think, if I just read some out that I've just like wrote down...the skill behind coaching, really great coaching is curiosity. The skill behind effective communication, a posture of curiosity. The skill behind having difficult conversations, curiosity. The skill behind empathy, curiosity. The skill behind humility, curiosity. Like I am on my hobby horse, clearly, and have confirmation bias about this. But I just think that showing up with more curiosity, as a prompt, enables all of these other things to be more likely to happen.

Jen: Yeah, 100%. Creativity. Self-awareness. Courage. Like, curiosity is an ingredient in pretty much everything. Wow. Okay.

Pete: This is my current rant.

Jen: I love it. I'm on board.

Pete: Okay, so then two things in my head. A., what might we do about that, if we're seeking to be more of anything that we described, creative, collaborative, coach-like, humble, empathetic? What does it look like to put curiosity into action? And then B., I mean, you mentioned a great example of collaboration, in your world. Is there any other things, environments, circumstances in the arts where curiosity is important / a no brainer / a given? Because, again, I feel like what's normal to your amazing community is not necessarily normal to others that I work with.

Jen: Well, when I say "creativity", you know, it can take a lot of forms. But right now, I'm talking about the act of creation, the act of making something. Curiosity is a necessary ingredient. Otherwise, you wouldn't actually be able to create something new.

Pete: Right.

Jen: The, "What if...," is the essential ingredient in making something new.

Pete: Hmm, I love that. Curiosity sounds like, "What if...?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: That's good. I like that.

Jen: "What if we tried this? What if we tried that? I'm curious to see how that will turn out."

Pete: Right, which is why I think it's also at the heart of coaching. Because I think what great coaches do, like you and others I know, is they ask really great curious questions, like, "Have you thought about this? What about that? How might you do this? Who could hold you accountable to this? When are you going to get this done by?" All these things are questions rooted in a genuine curiosity for how you're going to move this forward.

Jen: Yeah. The other thing in my world is that the best actors I know, know about more than acting.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: They're very curious people. They like to examine and explore the world in all of its facets, and learn about anything they can really get their hands on, because it makes them a better actor to know more.

Pete: Right, about anything.

Jen: Right.

Pete: That's cool. It's reminding me of Carol Dweck's Growth Mindset, of like, if you can adopt the kind of mindset that seeks growth and seeks to learn new things, inherent in that is you being curious about the world.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So where I got to with this conversation with the CEO, after a similar series of aha moments about how important curiosity was, was this great question that you posed to me, which was essentially, "Okay. And so, how do you help people train the muscle or give themselves permission to be more curious? What does it look like to go through the world having heard this podcast or something else, and go, 'Oh, I'm going to be a bit more curious.'" The first thing I responded to her with was, "Well, I think the easiest way to break down curiosity is to ask questions. Curiosity in action is asking questions."

Jen: Yeah, completely agree. It reminds me of Adam Grant's book, where he suggests that the best way to think is like a scientist.

Pete: Mmm. Think Again. That book?

Jen: Think Again, correct.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And he talks about the other ways of thinking...thinking like a preacher, where you're just telling everyone the way it is. And he shares other ways of thinking but ultimately lands on the curious mindset, that of a scientist, is the best way to stay open. And I agree with you, that curiosity in action is asking questions.

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: Curiosity in leadership has another element, I think.

Pete: Oh my god, tell me more.

Jen: Which is, also making decisions.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Because sometimes, you can get stuck in the, "But I want to stay curious, so I'll just keep asking the questions. I will just stay open, and we'll just never make a decision. We'll never draw a line in the sand for ourselves and say, 'This is what we're doing.'" And I think a really great leader gathers as much information as they can in the time that they have, and then makes decisions.

Pete: This is so genius, so accurate, so true. I had a session with someone in the C-Suite and his team, gosh, six months ago, and we were talking about decision-making. And what became apparent was they were really good at being curious, to a fault, where they were finding out so much and constantly discovering new things they should be looking at or people they should be talking to. And then at some point, this particular member of the C-Suite, you could see he got frustrated and was like, "This is the problem. None of us are making decisions. We're all just being so curious that it's actually become an issue."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so, I absolutely agree with you. It's like, there's a curiosity in, "When is the appropriate time for me to make the decision? When is enough information enough? And how might I move us forward by making a decision and living with it?"

Jen: Well, this is very much the rehearsal process when you're working with a great director. The rehearsals are very collaborative and a lot of ideas are on the table, and then the director makes the decision about which ideas actually make it to the final product.

Pete: I mean, again, I feel like you say that so flippantly, like it's so obvious. But for me, I'm like, tell me more. How do leaders do that?

Jen: Well, a lot of it has to do with establishing trust and respect and shared language in the workspace, and making people understand that even if their idea was not chosen, their idea was still valued.

Pete: Right. So people still feel seen, and heard, and like their ideas are understood and appreciated.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And there's a shared understanding that we're not going to use all these ideas, but the point of this process is to try some stuff, get it all out there, let's get curious about what could work and what might not. And there's a shared agreement that at some point, I'll make a decision and we'll move forward.

Jen: Yes. And my decision is not an ego-driven decision, but a vision-driven decision. We all agree that we want to achieve the best possible production we can, with the most legible choices that serve the story. So you have tasked to be with that responsibility, and I will take that responsibility to heart.

Pete: I feel like in this episode, you are just throwing out these absolute mic drops without realizing you're throwing out absolute mic drops. Like, "...vision-driven decisions," you just casually said that.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That's brilliant. I'm not making an ego-driven decision...which I think, if I think about ineffective organizations or teams, there might be a perception that the reason someone made a decision is because it's from a place of ego, or it benefits me or the status in me making a decision. So how do you, as the leader, help everyone believe and see that you're not doing that? You're actually making a value-driven decision. And then, what I think I heard in what you shared is, how do you actually help everyone craft that vision for you? So that, when you do make the decision, they can all go, "Oh yeah, that's aligned with the vision that we agreed."

Jen: Right. I mean, Pete, this is why I believe every corporation now needs to bring a theater artist in, because this is literally what we do.

Pete: I agree. I mean, I'm like, I feel like you and I have had three hundred and fifty-something conversations, and I'm still learning from your world about how leadership is an overlap of the art. Like, there's just so much overlap. It's wild.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: I never cease to be amazed by the overlap in our seemingly disparate worlds.

Jen: Isn't it wild?

Pete: It is.

Jen: It makes me feel, I don't know, curious.

Pete: Almost like we should start a podcast about it. So one of the things I've come up with, that I've started using in a close in a workshop that I might be talking to a group about coaching or communication or being more empathetic and connecting with your team, is, at some point, I'll say something like, "If you forget every single thing we talked about and only remember one thing, let it be this: A. B. C. - Always Be Curious."

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.