The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 331 - The Year of Experiments

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I may need some coaching from you today.

Pete: Oooh.

Jen: As I am trying to work with a commitment that I have made for myself, and maybe need to uncover what it actually means. And this commitment that I've made to myself (I actually made it a couple of months ago) is that 2025, for me, is the year of experimenting.

Pete: Alright, dust off your lab coats, everybody. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Have you got your Bunsen burner? Is a Bunsen burner an Australian expression? Is that an American expression too?

Jen: No, no, no, we say that in America too.

Pete: "We have Bunsen burners in America." Of course they do, you idiot.

Jen: Ah, our laboratories also have Bunsen burners.

Pete: Oh dear. Okay, so it's the year of the experiments for Jen Waldman. Tell me more.

Jen: Yes. So at the beginning of 2024, I set this goal for myself. And if I reached said goal, I would have essentially bought myself a cushion of slack, with which to experiment in the next year.

Pete: Ooh, nice.

Jen: So I just, I set this goal for myself. I reached it a couple months ago.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: And then, I was like, "Okay. Now that I've reached this and I've bought myself a little slack, this means that I'm committing to 2025 being a year of experimenting, which is very exciting."

Pete: Wait, this is very cool. So, there was...am I right in saying like there was some sort of business target, revenue goal, whatever it was that then you went, "If I hit this, then the trigger clause is I get to experiment with my lab coat and my Bunsen burner."

Jen: Yes. It was a multi-point goal, and one of those points was specifically about a revenue goal.

Pete: I love this. I mean, I already just love that this carrot is something that you're looking to explore. Because I feel like (me projecting) so often, once I have hit a goal, I might be like, "Okay, cool." But then, I'm going to extend the goal, or shift the goal post, or not necessarily give myself the carrot because I can get caught up in, "Oh. But if you did that, then what else could be possible?" So I like that you're going, "Nope. I've hit the goal, and now I get the carrot, which is to experiment." This is fun.

Jen: Yes. And it also just feels good that the reward is experiment. That's kind of fun.

Pete: Right. And to think of it as a reward is really...that's a fun way of thinking about it already.

Jen: Yes. And I didn't want to bring this up until after I had completed my year-end review and identified my values-based action statement for the coming year, because now this gives me a filter through which to conduct these experiments.

Pete: Right. I think, from memory, we called it a catchy catchphrase.

Jen: Catchy catchphrase. And mine was, "Build the ___ support."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So, "Build the fill-in-the-blank support." So, here's where I feel I could use some help. When I think about experimenting within my business, for example, I look at the online section of my business, which is very new. I opened JWS Online, in its current form, in November of 2023, so it's still a little baby. It's like barely a toddler, right?

Pete: It's like almost Ollie's age.

Jen: Right, right. So I'm like, experimenting there feels very early stages, very like, "Ooh, I could land on something, and it could become the foundational element." And that feels a little more like fun and whimsical, and there's not a whole lot of reputation at stake because that's so new. And then, when I start looking at experiments that I might conduct within my in-person studio, which is now almost twenty-one years old, I find myself having a lot more...I don't know if difficulty is the right word, but I'm in my own way a lot more.

Pete: Yeah. Fascinating. I have so many questions and thoughts. I'm just like compiling them all in my head. One of the things that comes to mind for me is, of the teachers, coaches, leaders that you admire, can you think of some examples where one of the things you admire about them is...I'm a little bit putting my assertion in this question. I'm leading the, what do you call it? Leading the witness?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: But I'm wondering if part of why you like some of the people that you like or follow some of the people that you follow is because they have some inherent creativity and ability to experiment. I feel like I know that about you, which is why it's a loaded question.

Jen: Yeah. That is true.

Pete: And I imagine, if you saw them do something else that was experimental...I mean, it depends what it is, obviously. And as long as it's in alignment with...

Jen: Oh, I see where you're going.

Pete: I have so many loaded questions. I'm trying not to make them loaded, but they're loaded. Like, unless it's completely out of character or not in alignment with them as a person or in their integrity (all these yards sticks, which we know you're going to clear), how do you think you're going to feel about them experimenting?

Jen: Yeah. I am so glad you asked this question, because before you even finished it, I'm like, "Oh, right." So if some of the people whose work I admire and whose work I follow, say Brené Brown for example, experimented, and the experiment totally tanked, totally failed, would I reject everything else I love about Brené Brown just because she tried something and it didn't work? And the answer, of course, is no.

Pete: Right. Thank you for catching what I was throwing, yeah. And so, this came up in a couple of separate episodes, I believe, that I guess is worth me reflecting back to you. The first was Small Fish Mindset, where we talked about numerous examples of people we admire. I talked about Michael Bungay Stanier parking his hubris and ego and expertise, and showing up to a workshop or a class or a course with a posture of, "Well, even though I know a lot about this world or this industry, like coaching or facilitation, I still could learn a lot from this world by surrounding myself with other people." Like, to me, that's an example of an experiment of putting yourself in an environment where you could be forgiven for saying you have more status or more expertise than the people even running these things. And yet, we talked about the benefits of leaning into that mindset.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: The other perhaps better example was in one of the episodes recently, we talked about our love for Shane Parrish, the host of The Knowledge Project podcast and the founder of Farnham Street. And one of the things we talked about loving him, in particular, for was his humility. But there was a very specific example where we were sharing...it was on our 2024 reflection episode, where we were sharing in a podcast how he talked about this book that he only released twelve months ago, and he was admitting to everyone in this podcast that gets hundreds of thousands of downloads, "Oh, I wish I had a reordered the contents. I could have made it so much better. I look back on it and go, 'Oh my god, what were you thinking?'" And so, it's not necessarily that he was experimenting in that example, but that he was reflecting on the mistake or the perceived mistake that he sees now. And I didn't hear that and go, "Huh. Shane, you're terrible. I'm never following you again." I actually want to learn more about Shane because of that. I almost respect him more.

Jen: I know. He's so interesting.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It's funny you bring him up because he has informed a bit of my year of experimenting, in that I decided that I was not going to label these experiments as "goals", but instead to implement a rule about experimenting. So, the rule is that I must conduct at least one in-person studio experiment each month and one online experiment each month.

Pete: Perfect.

Jen: And it's not that my goal is to figure out what it is, or my goal is to do it. It's that, no, it is a rule. It is therefore happening. And within that experiment, I can establish some goals. But the experiment will happen.

Pete: Right. Now, back to your fear about what your people might think, based on your twenty-five years of experience in the studio. I mean, I guess the more pointed question is, do you actually think there's any risk that people disengage from Jen Waldman and her coaching and teaching, because you tried an experiment and maybe it didn't go to plan?

Jen: Agh, no. I mean, my logical brain is like, "No," but my sensitive heart is like, "But...maybe."

Pete: Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's a great response. So one of the things I wonder is, I feel like in the right context with the right people...which only you would know. And if I think about this more broadly than your situation, like, I talk to leaders in organizations a lot about various experiments they might try. And if there's a fear there, I actually think there's a world where it's helpful to enroll everyone in the experiment, where you go, "Look, I'm going to try some stuff today, and it might not work." I mean, I say this in workshops sometimes. (I don't know if this is to a fault.) But sometimes, I'll go, "I want to try this activity. It might be a total failure. And if it is, I'll wear that. But I think it might be worth trying."

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And so, it's almost like bringing them behind the curtain, of like, "This is the experiment I'm trying. You can also put your safety goggles on and see if this Bunsen burner is going to work properly." Like, I don't know. Do you think that would help in some way?

Jen: I actually think that will absolutely help. And I'm realizing now, as I'm hearing you talk, I need to implement an additional rule.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: Which is, the experiment for the in-person studio cannot be conducted within the context of an already existing class. Because that is a hiding place for me, where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to experiment with something within Studio Workshop," which is a class I've taught for twenty-one years. You know, like, "Maybe I'll experiment with letting people choose when they go, rather than me pulling the names out of the digital hat."

Pete: Right, right, right. You mean that they're like, they're too low stakes. And that's not the point.

Jen: Too low stakes. Too low stakes.

Pete: Interesting. Alright.

Jen: So, like any good actor, I'm going to raise the stakes.

Pete: Oh, I like this. It's funny, because I was thinking of the opposite. Which is, often what I encourage leaders, if they're nervous about trying experiments, is you could start with really low stakes experiments like, "I'm not going to use a slide deck today in my meeting," you know? Like, "And don't do that in a meeting where you're presenting to the board. Do that in a meeting where you're presenting to a bunch of your peers who you know really well," for example. But what you're saying is...I love this...is the experiment has to be more than the super low stakes that you know you could comfortably do.

Jen: Right. Because part of what I spent 2024 doing was setting myself up to be able to conduct higher stakes experiments,

Pete: Right. So, that's the whole point.

Jen: That's the win, yeah.

Pete: Yeah. The feeling that you have, the discomfort of it, that's kind of the sign that you're doing the right experiment.

Jen: Yeah. Once upon a time, I think we recorded an episode (I'll have to check this) called Preach What You Practice.

Pete: Yeah, I remember.

Jen: Does that sound familiar?

Pete: Yeah, it does. It does.

Jen: And that feels like also a good just guiding principle, is that I talk to clients all the time about experimenting. And frankly, a lot of my approach to what we do in classes and coachings is all about experimenting. I'm really good at facilitating other people's experiments.

Pete: Yes. And...

Jen: And so, now I'm going to be facilitating my own.

Pete: Yeah, I like that. I guess the premise, for listeners who maybe don't remember, of Preach What You Practice was, I mean, so often you hear the opposite, which is, "We should practice what we preach," which suggests that we're preaching first and not actually doing the thing until after. And what we talked about was, "What if you inversed it? Which is, sharing or preaching things that you are actively practicing yourself."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "And how is that providing a better foundation for people that we're working with, teachers or coaches?" The other thing I just feel compelled to say is, I feel like I've seen you try many experiments already. And so, I don't know if the hurdle is as high as you think that you need to jump over. And maybe it's the fact that you formalized it into, "This is a thing I'm going to do." But my god, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen in a workshop, someone ask you a question, and you come up with a framework on the fly, which I would consider a total experiment. You're like, "Well, we could try this." I mean, I could think of like five off the top of my head. I feel like I've seen you do this, is what I'm trying to say. So, I don't think it's as scary and daunting as you might think it is.

Jen: Okay. Well, that's good to hear. What I found so motivating in this last year was knowing that if I achieved these benchmarks for myself, that I would get to participate in the year of experiments. So today, as I was walking around the frigid, brutal streets of New York...it is so cold here right now.

Pete: That's so funny, because it is the exact opposite where I am.

Jen: I was asking myself, "Okay, so what are the benchmarks you would want to hit in your year of experimenting. And then, like what would be the reward?" And the word that came to my mind was "adventure". So, I'm trying to figure out what that means. If 2025 is my year of experimenting, what are the marks I'm actually trying to reach? And if I reach them, can I gift myself, as a reward, a 2026 that is a year of adventure? It's very motivating.

Pete: I mean, yeah, I love this. Because coming to Australia is an adventure.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: That's quite the carrot.

Jen: Uh-huh.

Pete: I love the way you casually framed it as "get to". I think that's really important language for how you're thinking about this. It's not, "I have to experiment," but actually, "I get to."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I mean, I think about this a lot as it relates to building habits that we're trying to develop or reframing certain things that we think we "have to do", and how we might start to lament them or not look forward to them as a result. But if you flip it to, "I get to," I just think there's so much more agency in that framing, which then hopefully creates more levity and permission for you to have fun with it, because it's something you get to do, not something that's a drag that you have to do.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Like this was a product of your own creation, so this is a gift.

Jen: Yes. Well, I have some files on my various devices which are essentially to-do lists, but I put "get" in front of it. I have get-to-do lists.

Pete: My god, I did not know that. That's so good. I love that. I mean, I had to remind myself of that last year when I got a bit frustrated at the rhythm of which I was working in. And then, I was like, "Wait, I created this. This is something I get to do, not something I have to do. You are your own boss, Pete. This is kind of the point."

Jen: That's right. I will let you know that I am running my first experiment of the year in five days...in five days, my first experiment of the year.

Pete: And what does success look like? Is it just doing it?

Jen: So, oh, I mean, I'll tell you specifically what it is.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Once upon a time, in the early days of JWS, we used to have a Guest Artist Series, where I would bring in artists whose work I really admired, whether they were directors, music directors, composers, etc., sometimes an occasional casting director, to run a master class. And it was great. Then, all these businesses started popping up in New York City where casting professionals and some other folks from behind the table would be brought in for "classes", which were essentially actors paying for auditions. And so, at that point, I stopped bringing in guest artists. I didn't want to be associated with even the vague notion that I might be participating in actors paying for auditions. So anyway, that's been on the back burner. So the experiment is, I'm bringing in a guest artist. I'm running it like a master class. I'm doing a debrief session with all of the participants after, to talk about practical application of feedback using the techniques we teach at the studio. And then, at the end of that, I'm going to ask them if it felt like a pay-to-play.

Pete: Hmm. Nice.

Jen: So for me, the success of the experiment will be, whatever their answer is, as long as I know if I should continue doing this or not, it will be a success.

Pete: Love it. That's brilliant. Success is the answer to the question. And in order to get the answer the question, you have to do the thing itself. Love it.

Jen: Yeah. And it's so interesting, because I was so adamant in my point of view that I was not participating in this anymore, because the market has been tainted by these pay-to-play studios. And then, the pandemic happened, and auditioning started becoming a virtual thing. And so many of my clients have not met any of these creatives in a real room, and I'm like, "I could help solve this problem." Like, I could put people in a room together and be like, "Hey, would you like to meet?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: So, turns out I was wrong when I dug my heels into the ground.

Pete: I love it. And also, turns out the experiments, while a gift or a carrot to you, are actually also a gift to your community. At least, this example that you've provided is a clear example of that.

Jen: Well, I...okay, so that maybe was an unwritten or unspoken rule. But it's at the heart of everything we do at the studio. If it doesn't serve them, I'm not doing it.

Pete: Right. Which I feel like is worth repeating, because of the first point of tension that you raised, of the fear of changing or doing experiments in the studio that you've been doing for twenty-five years.

Jen: Wow. Okay, consider me called in. Thank you.

Pete: I think Jen's homework is to listen back to this episode.

Jen: I think so.

Pete: Because your answer to your thrashing lies in what you said out loud.

Jen: Well, friends, I guess that is The Long and The Short Of It.