The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 336 - Solvitur Ambulando

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Do you know much Latin?

Jen: I was going to try to answer in Latin, but I literally don't know enough Latin to even do that. So no, I do not.

Pete: You don't even know how to say no. Well, me neither. But I was just reviewing my list of topic ideas that I jot down when an idea comes to me or when I come across something that I'm like, "Oh, Jen and I should talk about that." And I read this, and I was like, "What was I talking about or thinking about when I wrote this down? Why did I think this would be a good idea?" So I googled it, and I actually think there might be something in this. So the idea, the concept, the Latin phrase is, "Solvitur ambulando." Excuse my pronunciation, for those-

Jen: Wait, what? Wait, wait, wait. Say it one more time.

Pete: Oh my god, I can't. "Solvitur ambulando."

Jen: Okay.

Pete: But it translates to, "It is solved by walking."

Jen: Oh.

Pete: And I think there's some wisdom in this that we should talk about.

Jen: Yeah. Let's talk about walking. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Alright. So I literally don't even know where else to take this conversation other than, I think ironically, when I heard this, I was out on a walk. And someone in passing, I'm sure (I don't even remember, it would have been in one of these many podcasts that I'm constantly consuming) was like, "Oh, you know, the Latin phrase, 'Solvitur ambulando: It's solved by walking.'" And I was like, "Excuse me? You can't just casually say that." But I so agree, in so many contexts I could think of, where literally going for a walk is helpful. And I think there's probably a world where you and I could consider, what are the conditions of walking that you could replicate without literally needing to walk? I think there's some wisdom in that. So I want to talk to you about, "It's solved by walking." Do you agree? Do you disagree? Are you a walker?

Jen: I live in New York City, of course I'm a walker.

Pete: Of course. As soon as that came out of my mouth, I was like, "I've seen you power walking through New York City."

Jen: And I have short legs, but I can walk fast.

Pete: You are fast. I feel like I've been trailing you, walking through New York City, which is saying something. I have big legs.

Jen: I mean, I really agree. And it's one of the reasons why New York City is the greatest city in the world, because you have to walk everywhere.

Pete: Yeah, so true. What are we talking about when we're saying the reason that walking can be beneficial is it could help us solve problems? Like what are the conditions of that, that everyone can replicate? And I have some thoughts and some assertions, but like maybe we'll get to those.

Jen: Yeah. So like, what's the theory behind the theory?

Pete: Right, right, right. What's the...not to like out-Latin the Latin expression, but I feel like we could find some meaning behind the meaning.

Jen: Yeah. Well, okay, let's just dive right in, shall we?

Pete: Hit me. What do you think about when you think about, "Solvitur ambulando?" I feel like people are going, "What are you talking about, Pete?"

Jen: I immediately have like ten different things come to mind, Pete. The first is, if you're feeling creatively stuck, don't just sit there. Move around.

Pete: Hmm, yeah. Like, move your body.

Jen: Yes. That, the act of just like waiting for it to come to you is likely not going to be the thing that helps. You've got to get things moving. And by getting things moving, your body moving, you get your mind moving, you get your feelings moving. Like all these things start moving, and creative ideas start to come. So, that's the first thing. Should I just say them all right now?

Pete: Yeah, keep going. I like that one, first. I have some thoughts. But keep going.

Jen: Okay. The second is to lower stress, or reduce anxiety, or like take the edge off. So I am sure you've done this, at some point. You get heated about something, and it's like, "I'm going for a walk," because it restores clarity of thinking.

Pete: Right. Or you respond, and then, you go for the walk and you go, "Goddamn it. Why did I respond?"

Jen: "Why did I say that?" I've come up with the greatest comebacks on walks, after the fact.

Pete: Like three weeks later, I'm on a walk and I go, "I know what I should have said."

Jen: Oh my gosh, it's so true. Also, Pete, you might remember, I live on Riverside Park, which is a great walking park. And when I have someone in my life who is going through something challenging and they want to talk about it, I say, "Let's meet in the park and go for a walk," because we're able to avoid the awkwardness of like, "Let's sit here and look at each other strangely, until one of us has the courage to say like, 'What are we really here to talk about?'" When you're walking, you're looking ahead, as opposed to staring each other down.

Pete: Totally. Okay, this is...there's so much wisdom in this one. I know you said you were going to say them all, but this one, I feel like I've done this myself and I encourage leaders to do it in my work when it relates to having a difficult conversation or an uncomfortable conversation, in your context. And this is not my own IP, this is like mentioned by many many leaders from all parts of the world across generations, where having a difficult conversation where you are shoulder to shoulder, or an uncomfortable conversation walking in unison towards something, there's something about the A., the movement of the body, but B., just the lack of...I don't know if "threat" is the right word, but there's less intensity than like looking into each other's eyes, to your point, and going, "Let's have this uncomfortable conversation as I stare into your eyes," and the other person is like, "Oh my god." There's just something in the movement, something in the walking towards something, in the being side by side. And I think that is literally true. And I also encourage people, when they're in a context maybe where they can't walk but they may be in a meeting room, is to like, can you have a conversation where you're sitting side by side and looking at a whiteboard, for example, versus sitting across from the table at each other and kind of like almost adversarially looking at each other.

Jen: Absolutely.

Pete: What else you got? I know you've got so much more.

Jen: Okay. I'm only going to share one more. And then, you can respond and add. My number one audition room trick for actors-

Pete: Drum roll...

Jen: -is, "When someone gives you an adjustment to your performance, walk somewhere else in the room and start from a different place. Because even if you don't understand the adjustment, even if you don't agree with it, you can't possibly tell the same story if you're starting from somewhere else." And my guess is, that is transferable outside the audition room as well. Like if, for example, I am trying to get Cate's attention, and I'm in the kitchen going, "Cate! Cate! Cate," I'm just telling the same story over and over again. I could walk myself over to her room and say, "Hey, do you have a second to talk?" It's a different story.

Pete: Yeah. Okay, I mean, this is where it feels comically novel and absurd that we could prescribe walking as a solution to so many challenges and problems. And I've heard so many people, there's a really good episode of a podcast that I listen to regularly, The Imperfects, where they talk about...they have a guest on, and I can't remember her name. (I'll remember it, and put in the Box O' Goodies.) And she talks about like, literally, how walking has completely changed her life. And I remember first hearing it or seeing the title and being like, not scoffing, but almost like smiling to myself, like, "That's a bit of click-bait. Walking is not going to change your life." And then, the way she described it and the things that she solved through going through the walks, they helped her through really difficult childhood stuff and helped her through some relationship troubles. And like all of these times where she felt stuck or overwhelmed or emotional, she'd go for a walk. And so, it like helped her process, which literally helped her change her life. And so, I just think that if you're a listener out there going, "This is comical that you're talking about, if I have a challenge, I go for a walk," I hear you. And I really think there's some wisdom to this.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Okay. So going back to, you said, "Move to be creative," at the first. I have this written on my whiteboard, which I'm looking at over the top of my computer, which is, "Mood follows action."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I try and think about this every day, because it's on my whiteboard. And what I mean by that when I'm thinking about it is, if I sit around and wait for inspiration...you used the concept of creativity in this sense. If I sit around stagnant, waiting for creativity to strike, it's pretty unlikely that the mood, that the creativity will just come to me, and then, I'll take action. And I've borrowed this from so many people. I'm pretty sure James Clear has talked about this. I'm pretty sure Tim Ferriss has talked about this. I'm pretty sure Shane Parrish, Debbie Millman, I think Seth Godin has talked about this. So many people that I read and admire have talked about this idea, that it's the taking the action. So that might look like the action of starting to write on a blank page. And then, the mood of, "Oh, I'm feeling creative. I'm starting to write better," comes after you take that initial action. I think about it, in that sense. But what I'm like...I'm almost realizing this on the fly (I don't know if this is an aha moment), the action can actually literally be an action, like walking. Like, I don't know, I've always thought about it of the action of starting to write a hard email, or the action of starting to write a proposal that you didn't want to, then your mood will come. But actually, the mood of feeling less overwhelmed, feeling more positive, feeling connected to someone, all of that can come through the action of starting to literally walk or move your body, which I feel like is what you were getting at.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Okay, this is another little aha that I'm just connecting now. I mean, this is rare for me to be sitting while we record this podcast. And I realize, in this moment, that usually when we're recording, I'm standing up. And I've told myself a story, usually that's because I feel more energized when I'm standing, because I am very tall and shouldn't be sitting and hunched over too much. But I actually think this might fit in with this idea of, "Solvitur ambulando," that I'm able to I think more creatively, connect dots, ask questions, come up with ideas when I'm standing because I'm usually likeswaying from foot to foot, or kind of walking back and forward, or rocking back more without realizing it. So there's like a motion, even in standing, that is helpful.

Jen: I agree with you. I think that's why our desks aren't made out of whiteboards, but they're on the wall, so we have to get up.

Pete: I'm just imagining a whiteboard desk, it would be kind of handy. But you're right. You have to move. You have to walk to the whiteboard and stand in front of it.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Good call, good call. So one of my very good friends is a guy by the name of Josh Janssen, I've mentioned him time and time again on this podcast. When I lived in Melbourne, he lived around the corner from me. And we used to walk once a week for sometimes two hours in the morning before the sun rose, when you absolutely could not be bothered walking outside in the pitch black and going for a walk. And every single time, without fail, I felt better, after the fact. And I think part of it was the moving my body, the walking through space, for sure. But the other part of it, which you sort of touched on earlier, was this idea of walking with someone else as a way to catch up, as a way to connect. Like, if you had said to me at the time or if Josh had said to me, "Let's go sit in a cafe for two hours and have a conversation," I would have been like, "There's no way we're going to last two hours. We don't have the ability to sit that still and talk to each other for two hours. We're going to run out of things to talk about." But no matter what was going on in any of our lives, no matter where we were mentally or physically, there was always a benefit from just like side by side, moving through space together. That's how I think about it. And it's one of the things I actually really miss living in Brisbane, when Josh is still in Melbourne.

Jen: Mmm. Okay, this is a totally different direction, but my brain just went here.

Pete: Great.

Jen: I'm thinking about walking as one of the many ways we improve our health, and this goal that I feel like we've collectively settled on of 10,000 steps a day.

Pete: That's like the universal goal that everybody randomly has.

Jen: Right. I mean, if you live in New York, you're walking a lot more than 10,000 steps a day. But interestingly, my in-laws, who are in their mid-eighties, have step counters on their phone, and they make it a point to hit their 10,000 steps. My father-in-law, in particular. And if we're getting to like the afternoon and he's like, "Ooh, I'm way under my step count for the day," he'll say, "Oh, let's go run an errand or something," or like, "Let's get out of the house for a minute." So also, walking as the solution not just for keeping your health up, but as the incentive to get outside, as the incentive to get things done, as the incentive to see the world, to stay active. So, yay for step counters.

Pete: Love it. Yeah, it's like a tangible goal that gives us almost a carrot or a reason to get outside.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: I love that.

Jen: There's also lots of research on this so, you know, friends, google it. But doing a repetitive activity like walking, which doesn't require that much thinking on your part, frees up a lot of other parts of your mind. As an example, if you're trying to memorize something, sitting still and memorizing it is going to be harder than walking while memorizing it.

Pete: Huh.

Jen: Right? You know, there's this lore that at Google, they have treadmills, so that people who are trying to work problems out can get to their solutions in a more efficient way.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Let's find out if that's true. If you work at Google, will you send us an email and let us know if that's true?

Pete: There's a few listeners that do, so we know a few of them. So please, either confirm or deny. Are you walking on a treadmill right now, while you're listening to this at Google?

Jen: And also, this writer whose podcast I listen to...she's a screenwriter, writes TV and film. She writes while walking on, at her treadmill desk. She does better writing when her feet are moving.

Pete: Mmm. That's wild. I mean, I can't even wrap my head around trying to type while walking at the same time. I have respect for anyone who can do that. The thing that came to mind for me just now is an episode that I am loathe to even recommend because, gosh, it was so early in our podcasting journey.

Jen: Oh no.

Pete: That I don't even know how it would hold up.

Jen: Which one is it?

Pete: It was shower thoughts. I think it was like number two or three.

Jen: Oh.

Pete: And I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies for anyone brave enough to go back and listen to us that early on.

Jen: I don't know if I'm brave enough.

Pete: I apologize in advance. But the premise of it was, I think from memory, we were saying, "Why is it that we have our best thoughts or come up with great ideas in the shower?" And we were hypothesizing, "There's no distractions. There's the fact that you're standing. There's water." Like there's a whole bunch of, obviously, people know the conditions of a shower. I don't need to describe them. And so, I wonder if this is like a version of that. To me, it feels like a similar thing. Usually when people are walking, I hope you're not like staring at your phone or on a laptop, unless you're doing that writing treadmill thing that you mentioned earlier. But usually, when I'm talking about walking, I'm walking, my phone might be in my pocket or it might be at home. I'm not distracted. I'm not facing a to-do. I'm doing something for the sake of doing something. Like, I'm showering because I'm showering. I'm walking because I'm walking. And the results are, often, I come up with a new idea, or I feel better, or I clarify some thinking, all those things. I feel like there's a rhyme there between shower thoughts and walking.

Jen: 100%. I do my best thinking in the shower or on a walk. And in fact, Pete, I know this about myself now, because I've been doing this for enough years to know, that a twenty-minute walk for me will produce a pretty solid ninety-minute workshop outline.

Pete: Oh, interesting.

Jen: Yeah. I can go on a twenty-minute walk, and then, get back to my computer and basically be ready to deliver something.

Pete: Here's a slightly dystopian or utopian (I don't know, you decide) futuristic scenario that I've tried recently, which is, I needed to do a bunch of research for a particular thing that I was doing some work on. And usually, that would look like reading articles, researching articles on my computer. And I turned on ChatGPT audio assist, and I walked and I had a conversation with ChatGPT audio.

Jen: Where it talks back to you?

Pete: It talks back to you. So I had a conversation, which was me researching. Because I was short on time, I wanted to move my body and get a walk in, but I also had to do this research. And I won't lie, it was kind of weird, because usually I'm walking without trying to do work and research at the same time...and not talking to a robot. But it was kind of remarkable how effective it was.

Jen: Oh, that is wild. I've got to try that. Because, you know, I talk to myself into my Otter app. That's what my twenty-minute walk looks like.

Pete: Right. This is essentially what you do.

Jen: But someone gives you feedback along the way. Well, not someone - a robot with no heart, no soul, no hopes, no dreams, no fears, gives you feedback along the way.

Pete: Right. It's imperfect. Sometimes, it interrupts you. And I was like, "Excuse me, I've not finished my thought just yet. I'm still going." But it's worth trying. I mean, it's wild how you can learn and think. And like you said, something about memorizing and learning on the move, as opposed to in a passive space, feels stickier.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: The other thing (this is totally anecdotal, absolutely nothing to back this up other than my own experience) is, I feel like there's this weird tipping point at the thirty-minute mark, if you can get there, where something magical happens between thirty and sixty minutes, where you kind of drop into a different zone. You forget the thing that you were thinking about when you started your walk. I don't know why. I just feel like, if you can get yourself into a longer walk, something magical happens between thirty and sixty minutes. Again, totally anecdotal, just based on my own experience.

Jen: I love it. Well, you know, in the summertime, I get myself up and out. I'm out when the sun rises. And let me tell you, Pete, those morning walks (sometimes they're walks, sometimes they're runs) are the greatest way to kick start a day. Well,

Pete: Well, there you go. Turns out the old Latin phrase, "Solvitur ambulando," had some serious applications, some serious wisdom. It wasn't just a random thought that I had.

Jen: No, I love it. "Solvitur ambulando." And that is The Long and The Short Of It.