The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 342 - Oversaturated

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: Well, after all these years, I think maybe I've overdone professional and personal development for now. I think I don't know if you can overdose on books and podcasts, but I think I might have. And I need to talk to you. I need an intervention.

Jen: I have so been there. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Oh, thank god. I already feel relieved that you have been where I am. So, I guess like a little context. I, like you (we have this in common), read and listen to and consume multitudes of books and podcasts that are non-fiction, that are designed to help us be better leaders, be better humans, be better business owners. I read books on leadership. I read books on self-management. I read books on stoic philosophy. All sorts of things designed to, you know, try and make me a better person and a better leader. And I recently went on a holiday with my family, with my wife and son, and I thought, "What a great opportunity to read some fiction. That's what you do on holidays, I'm going to read some fiction." And I found this author, Frederik Backman, who, my god, is this Swedish author who has written these books that are viral sensations, that I've never known about. And I read one of the books, and I found myself having that experience when you're in a good book, where you just go into another world, and all you can think about is reading this book at this moment in time. And then, when you're not reading it, you're like, "I need to get Ollie to sleep so that I can go back to reading that book." Like it was, it became an obsession. I read one book. Finished it. And then, I realized he had another one. Read that. Then, I got home from our holiday, and I was like, "Alright, I guess I'll fire up the ol' non-fiction, and see what...". And I just looked at all of the books that I had and all the podcasts that I've got in my queue, and all of them, I just was like, "Ugh. I just can't with trying to...like, I feel like I know what you're all going to tell me. Just do this a little bit better, and try this a little bit more, and, you know, get up at 4am and do your cold plunge and your twenty minutes of journaling. Like, the whole extreme version of it." And I kind of rolled my eyes at it. And then, I found another book by Frederik Backman. And I was like, "Here I go, again." And I'm like tearing through this book. So I'm like recognizing in myself, I have a pull to fiction and a pull away from non-fiction. And so, I think I'm oversaturated. Finally. After, I mean, I didn't think this would ever happen, but it's happened. Help. What do I do? Is this familiar to you?

Jen: I think it's great. I have so many things I want to say. First of all, Pete, I am in a similar position right now. But instead of reading fiction, I'm just all about cooking.

Pete: Oh, nice.

Jen: All I want to do is listen to cooking podcasts, and read cookbooks, and watch cooking shows. Like, that's it for me right now. So, I'm with you. I am reading one book about decision-making, but I'm reading it in such slow drips. It's like the slowest I've ever read a book in life.

Pete: Yeah. Which, to me, that was part of the symptom. I thought that I'd just become a slow reader. And then, I found this fiction book and was like, "Oh no, I still have the ability to crush a book in like three days, in two days." And so, it's not actually me. It was the books that I was reading. That was my conclusion, at least, or the excitement I had about the topic.

Jen: So, Pete, you might remember that...I don't do this anymore, but I used to have this almost religious practice where I would be listening to something not related to acting or creativity on my way to work, and then, I gave myself the challenge of, "From the time I get off the subway to the time my keys go in the door, I'm going to figure out how to connect something that I just heard to what I'm about to do." So, you know, it could have been a podcast about the Empire State Building. It could have been about a small village in China. Like, I would just give myself this challenge, "Connect the dots between this thing and the thing that you are truly a student of Jen, and I do feel like in these moments when we're oversaturated with this one topic, that is a really useful way to get out of the oversaturation, is to start practicing goal application or dot connecting or creative association. So, my thirty thousand-foot assessment of what you are dealing with is that you're oversaturated because you need more opportunities to connect the dots. Oh, I

Pete: Oh, I feel called out. That's great. That's so true. Here's how I interpret what you just said, if I was to call myself out even more: You are so good at consuming things that are designed to make you better at your job and in your life, and that can be a hiding spot. Actually, what you need to start doing is either applying it or looking for other ways and relationships it could have with other things in the world, rather than, "If I just keep consuming, I'll just get better." Which, I totally recognize in myself as a hiding spot. I mean, I guess it's why like the same authors keep writing multiple books and selling them, because people...I don't think I'm unique, in that, we're really good at going, "Oh yeah, I get that. Yeah, I definitely need to do that." But then, do we actually do anything with it?

Jen: Right. Well, okay, I personally am looking for the next major breakthrough in the leadership and personal development space.

Pete: Maybe there's just not. I guess this is...like, it reminds me of Austin Kleon. Austin Kleon wrote an incredible book called Steal Like an Artist, which, the title suggests the punchline of the book, which is ultimately that there's no unique ideas. We're all just riffing on and building on and stealing from existing ideas, old ideas. And I kind of think the same is true in, you know, like in leadership and management, is, you go back and read some of the really old texts. Gosh, I mean, honestly, you go back and read old philosophy, and you're like, "Huh, yeah. 'Have humility.' Hmm. Yep. 'Treat other people the way you and and they would like to be treated.'" You know? All these like lessons, which are now relevant in the leadership context, have existed for eons. And it's like, we think we're so unique as modern humans, with all these new takes on things. And I'm just like, we're just not. We're just not.

Jen: It's true. And (yes, and) once in a while, someone comes along and completely revolutionizes the way we think about things, because of the way they frame it. You know? I look at this in my industry, you know, the industry of Broadway musicals. There are many, many musicals being written all the time. And yet, once in a while, a musical comes along and changes everything. Everything.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And in my experience in the leadership and personal development space, I feel like I've been cognizant of certain moments where that's happened. Simon Sinek, Start With Why. Brené Brown, coming onto the scene, and then, the masterpiece that is Dare to Lead.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Adam Grant. Seth Godin.

Pete: Yeah. Annie Duke. Yeah, you're right.

Jen: Right? It's like, I am ready for the next moment that changes everything in that space.

Pete: Yeah. Alright, maybe I am too. And in the meantime, I'm going to keep reading books.

Jen: Oh, yeah. Books are great.

Pete: By Frederik Backman though, specifically. I mean, I'll put these in the Box O' Goodies. But there are these three in particular that I read. A Man Called Ove is the first one. Bear Town is the second one. And Anxious People is the third one.

Jen: I've heard of these.

Pete: Oh, I'm sure you have. I didn't realize, he's sold like millions of copies. These are like global hits. And he's such a good writer that you have that moment, I think you and I talked about this ages ago, where every now and then, you have that moment where you just like want to throw your book across the room, because you're like, "What? I thought for the last two hundred pages that I was listening to the voice of a particular person in a particular way." (I'm not going to give too much away.) And then, all of a sudden, it sort of like released this detail, and you just go, "Wait a minute. I need to re-read those two hundred pages, because now everything is completely...like, it doesn't make sense." Throw my book across the room. Just that, yeah, that like surprise element.

Jen: I love when that happens. It's so exciting.

Pete: Yeah. So, maybe this whole episode is just a PSA for Frederik Backman. Everyone, get out there and read these three books.

Jen: But I want to go back to what we were originally talking about, for a second.

Pete: Sorry.

Jen: No, no, no.

Pete: Tangent. Tangent.

Jen: I got us off on a tangent. And then, you got us off on another one. But to this idea of oversaturation, I'm helping one of my daughter's very close friends right now, she's a senior in high school and wants to study something very specific. And she has three incredible offers on the table, from three world-renowned universities. Like, it's just the best possible position to be in.

Pete: Right. And like, any one of the three is a win, by the sound of it.

Jen: Correct. And I was talking to her parents last night, and one of the things I was saying is like, you know, "You could pick a school where all you study is this very niche thing, and you go all in on this one thing." I feel like I'm being cryptic. I'll just say she wants to study theatre, which is why they're, you know, talking to me. "So you could go all in on, like it's all acting all the time. Which, one of the schools would offer."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "And then, one of the other schools, it's a 360-degree view of theatre, plus you have to take classes in all of these other non-theatre-related things." And it's like, you know, if it were up to me (which it is not), like learn as many different things as you can. Because then, you can connect the dots. And maybe that is what ultimately makes you a better actor, is knowing more about lots of things.

Pete: Oooh, okay. So, maybe...this is what I just heard. I've been doing the narrow for so long, the like, "Let me just read a bunch of these books with very similar themes and slightly different takes on the same theme, and I'll incorporate them to my workshops." And don't get me wrong, I have benefited greatly from this knowledge that I've acquired, that helps me with my clients. However, oh god, you're so right. I'm now like, what are the other threads, the other topics, the other areas that you can explore that you'll end up inevitably linking back and relating back? But I've been so myopic in this one lens, that I need to start to span to a 180/360 degree. And even fiction books based in Sweden, written by this amazing author, have a relevance somewhere, so much relevance to the work I do with other leaders and humans.

Jen: Yes. Because you are so well studied on leadership and personal development, you bring that knowledge with you into the reading of fiction. And there may be a lesson that you learn from the protagonist in the book, or, you know, some episode that happens in the book, that you can go like, "Oh, this is that human instinct that I have studied, and I'm watching it play out in the story. Oh. Now, I understand it more. I can empathize with someone going through that in a different way."

Pete: Right. The empathize piece is so critical. I feel like this is one of the huge benefits of fiction.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And that is that we get to immerse ourselves in different worldviews. Often, especially in these books I've been reading, worldviews that you wouldn't necessarily explore, for whatever reasons. And you start to go, "Huh, wow. I actually totally understand why that person would behave that way. I really feel sorry for the person who committed that crime." When, like, the crime was heinous. Why would I feel sorry for them? But I know their backstory now, and it's sort of like worldview shattering in a way, like, "Oh my god, I guess this is all of us. We're all just doing the best with the context that we're in, based on who we are and where we are and what's happening around us. And like, what does that mean?"

Jen: Yes. You're talking like an actor right now.

Pete: What? Oh my god. No one's ever told me that before. How fun. What a fun compliment.

Jen: Now, one other angle on this. I remember hearing Seth Godin talk about having hobbies, like the importance of having hobbies. And then also, and maybe it was in the same conversation, having hobbies that you're not good at.

Pete: Mmm, yes.

Jen: And that also feels like something to lean in on when you are oversaturated with something you already have quite a lot of expertise in.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: This is why, you know, I love to cook. And I told you, I'm like really in on the cooking right now. But Cate and I have been talking about, and this is coming out of me wanting to kind of fail a little bit more in the cooking department, we're going to have a summer of baking. Which, you know, there's a lot of failure there.

Pete: Yeah, I love that. It's like the benefits of humbling yourself.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Of which, there are many. I mean, you learn that failures aren't that big a deal, and you can recover from them. You learn that if you try certain things, other things happen, like cause and effect. And you have fun and you laugh doing it, I'm sure. I mean, in the cooking context, there's something super primal, and I think rewarding about taking raw ingredients and having an output that is a thing that went through a process that you created. I think that's so cool.

Jen: It is. And you know, with my next failed soufflé, for example, I have the benefit as, you know, anyone who has an area of expertise does, of I can walk away from the soufflé and then go into a music situation and be successful again. You know?

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: It's like, if you have the benefit of an area of expertise, maybe that even gives you more room to fail.

Pete: I love that. And also, in the same way that fiction helps us build empathy for other's worldviews, I feel like being a beginner again would give one empathy for those who feel like a beginner when they're in the class of yours that you're an expert in or the workshop that you happen to have run a hundred times, and they're like, "What is coaching? What is curiosity? What are you talking about?" And you can go, "Oh, I remember. I know what it feels like to feel like that. To go, 'I have no idea what we're talking about here.'" That would make you a better coach, better leader, better facilitator, and likewise. Well, I guess it turns out there's a whole other world out there, outside of the professional and personal development and leadership context that I've surrounded myself in for, I don't know, the last eighteen years. And I feel compelled to say, I just know my mum is sitting there with her headphones in, saying, "I told you so, Pete. I've been trying to tell you this for eighteen years." She's one of the most voracious readers of fiction that I know, and I just know she's going, "I've been trying to tell you this for eighteen years."

Jen: You know, Pete, at the end of every year, we do an episode called Favorite Things, where we recap our favorite things of the year. And we always share our favorite fiction book and our favorite non-fiction book, but one of the things we haven't done is asked our listeners to share their favorite fiction books with us.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: A lot of times we get recommendations from listeners for non-fiction books, but I would love to hear what you all are listening to out there, so send us an email: hello@thelongandtheshortpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you, and maybe your book will end up as one of our favorites in the end of the year episode.

Pete: I love this idea. Send me your recommendations. It's something I found really hard, when I was like, "I'm going to read fiction," I'd go, "Where do I start? I don't have any recommendations." I don't know how I ended up down the rabbit hole of Frederik Backman, but I'm so glad that I did. Please, listeners, send us your recommendations. Even just by talking about this, I am feeling like the intervention was a success. I'm seeing dots that I can connect, and that it's okay to step outside the narrow, myopic lens that I've been consuming for so long.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.