The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 346 - Uncertainty

Transcript:

Pete: Hey Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: I've been asked a question a few times recently, which has become a theme. And as tends to be my process when I get a question that's asked of me many times, I go, "I'm just going to ask Jen this question." And the question is: How can I (the leader who's asking me the question) effectively lead through uncertainty?

Jen: Hmm. [sighs]

Pete: Are you uncertain?

Jen: That was a sigh of, "How long have you got, Pete?" This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I thought it was a sigh of, "Oh god, we really have to talk about this? This is a great topic choice, Pete."

Jen: No, it's just...it's such a full question.

Pete: Yeah, it's loaded.

Jen: It really is.

Pete: And I have a thousand and three thoughts, as usual. But mainly, I want to ask you about your thoughts. And so, the context I guess that this comes from is, most recently, where this popped up is I'm designing and will be delivering a twelve-month leadership program for this really cool group of eight high-performing leaders in this organization. It's going to be really awesome. And I've been working on, "What are the kinds of topics and skills that we could and will focus on throughout this twelve months? What's the right order? Like can you get sequential about, you start with this process? Like you start with difficult conversations, then you go into stories, all the different permutations of what one could talk about." In designing it and sort of co-designing it, I asked my contact, the client (this, you know, very senior leader in People and Culture and HR), "What do you think are like the most important topics? What are you noticing in your organization and your position?" And she was like, "Oh, leading through uncertainty. For sure." And that is the most recent example of someone saying something like, "How do you lead through uncertainty? What is it like to lead through uncertainty? The world is so uncertain at the moment. How are we leveraging technology? What is happening in the world?" Like all these kinds of versions of, "How do we lead in uncertainty?" Now, my first thought, off the bat...I do want to get yours, but I just want to throw this out there...is, I feel like you can take away the words "through uncertainty".

Jen: Yes. I was literally just going to say the same thing.

Pete: Because isn't everything always uncertain? Maybe it's amplified more and more now because there are more things changing, or at a pace that is so rapid that we can't even keep up because of technology and blah blah blah. But I kind of feel like saying, I think the question is, "How do we lead," not, "How do we lead through uncertainty?"

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Which is loaded, from me. So let me like wind back a step and go, well, how do you even respond to this idea of leading through uncertainty?

Jen: Okay, so part of my great big sigh, Pete...

Pete: It was a big sigh.

Jen: ...is that the question is really loaded with a lot of (I'm putting this in gentle air quotes) "emotional baggage" for the asker.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: In that, saying "uncertainty" is a way, as a leader, of relieving yourself from being on the hook.

Pete: Right. Right. Say more. Wait, say more.

Jen: And so, how does the leader find a way to be okay with releasing outcomes and standing on the certainty that their decisionmaking is excellent, even if the outcome is out of their control? And this is something we have talked about a million bajillion times.

Pete: Annie Duke, baby.

Jen: But part of being a leader is helping the people you lead to find more confidence following you. So you know, part of it is the transparency of like, "Who knows what lies around the bend, but here is all the information that we have to make the decision with. And based on this information, here's the decision I've made.

Pete: Right. Okay, I love this so much. My interpretation of the first part of what you said is (taking yourself off the hook) it almost feels like in that question, one is saying, "Here, solve the uncertainty for me."

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: You know? Like, "How do I lead through uncertainty? I.E., Can you take away the uncertainty part so that I can lead?" Right?

Jen: Exactly. And that's just inherently part of leadership.

Pete: Right. This is baked in.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Sorry, you can't solve the uncertainty part, because leadership is uncertain. And so, to me, it becomes, "What is certain, then?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: If it's, "How do I lead in uncertainty," recognizing uncertainty is ever-present, "Okay, so how do I lead? How do I focus on what is certain, so that I can control all that and work with that to display confidence and direction to the team, knowing these are the things within our control?"

Jen: It also makes me think that are we, as a society, recovering from false claims of certainty from past leaders? Like is that part of what's being responded to? Like when I followed a leader, or maybe, in this case, we're just talking about a boss who said they were a leader, was I sold a bill of goods? And am I cynical about that?

Pete: Right. That's interesting. Like almost a comparison of, "Others seem so certain, so why do I feel uncertain? And can you help me solve that?" Like, it's an instagramification of certainty. You know? Where, we look at people's lives on Instagram and go, "Wow, their life is perfect. They have no issues." And then, reflect on our own life and go, "God, I have so many issues and struggles and hard things and tensions, and my life doesn't feel like as amazing as that person's on Instagram." It's like that equivalent in leadership. Where, you look at other leaders (good, bad, or otherwise) and go, "They're so certain and have so much direction and have so little self-doubt. And yet, here I am with all my uncertainty and all my self-doubt and all my inability to make decisions." And I'm here to tell, you know, anyone listening who cares,having spoken to literally thousands of leaders at this point, I have not come across one who does not have uncertainty, doubt, a fear that they're not doing the right thing or making the right decision. It's like baked in and par for the course. In fact, so often the benefit of cohort-based leadership programs that I run is like, "Oh, I just feel so much less alone. Because I didn't know that Jen was also struggling with this, and Pete was also struggling with this, and you actually didn't quite know what you were doing either. That's really relieving."

Jen: Right. So, it sounds like a person who claims certainty all the time is likely not a great candidate to be a leader.

Pete: Right. Because I think that it's a fallacy to have certainty all the time. Like there's an inherent requirement, in my eyes (and I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule), of humility in a great leader, which is the recognition that I don't know everything. I have uncertainties somewhere. I might not even know what they are, but I recognize that. And I have the self-awareness to go, "Well, I don't know everything, clearly, so I can't be certain about everything,

Jen: Right.

Pete: So, what can I be certain about? Well, I can be certain about how I show up, the questions that I ask, the process by which we make decisions. To your point earlier, I could have certainty around, "My process for making a decision is to talk to...," I don't know, I'm making this up, "...seven experts in this field, to gather as much information as possible. I'll read a research paper from a number of different organizations that have put together research papers. I'll develop some sort of hypothesis. And then, I'll make a decision." I can have certainty in that process and uncertainty in the fact that that doesn't guarantee I'm going to get the outcome that I want to get. Because, you know, like we've talked about, decisions and outcomes are separate things.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So I think, yes, I agree with what you said. Which is, a leader who says, "I am absolutely certain,100% of the time," I mean, I straight up call bullshit, absolute bullshit.

Jen: Yeah. Yep. Okay, Pete, you know I love to dissect words.

Pete: Yeah, you do. Are we going into the thesaurus, the visual thesaurus world?

Jen: Well, I'm just like, what do they mean by "lead"?

Pete: Hmm, great question. I think it differs depending on who's asking it.

Jen: Right.

Pete: I think it's often said in the context of this is a group of leaders, because they're in a leadership program, so help them lead. I think generally speaking, what people are talking about is they have a team of people that report to them. So, how do they lead them? "I guide them. I work with them. I manage them. I coach them." All of these other verbs that also apply when there's all of this uncertainty as part of it.

Jen: Oh my gosh. Okay, we're about to...rabbit hole, here I come.

Pete: Go, go, go, get down there.

Jen: Well, the answer about, "How do I lead through uncertainty," is different based on what the definition is. Because if you were saying that in their role, sometimes they guide, sometimes they coach, sometimes they manage. So as a guide, it is dangerous / dishonest to have a certain degree of uncertainty about what you're guiding people toward. But as a coach, your uncertainty is your greatest gift, because the coaching is about the curiosity. And going back to the guide piece, sometimes you are the most knowledgeable of a group that doesn't have all the knowledge, and therefore, you're the guide, so you go based on what you know and you make best guesses. But if you're a manager, you do need to know what you're managing.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So it feels like there's some sort of a a scale here, a spectrum. And it's not always the same. And so, as you and I say at least a hundred times each episode, context matters.

Pete: Right. I feel like that's our catchphrase of the last six months.

Jen: Right? But it's so true.

Pete: Yes. So it's, from what I hear you say, is like, "Can I get clear on what my role is, in this context, as the leader?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: And then, how I navigate the "uncertainty" should differ, depending on what my role is.

Jen: Yes. And okay, so here's a question. Is it critical that a leader is certain about the context that they are operating in? In my world, in the acting world, the answer is yes. I don't know if it's true in all worlds. But in my world, the answer is yes.

Pete: I want to say yes, with the caveat that they're open to be challenged.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That, "I have to make decisions as a leader and project confidence in the direction of where I'm going, for the team to also get on board. Like, here is my understanding of the context. I'm pretty certain about that, based on these five things," or whatever, I'm making that number up. "Here's where I think we should go. What do you think, as a team? How would we make this happen?" Like, to me, that's a pretty generic overarching philosophy for how you might think about leadership. And I think important to that is, "Along the way, if you have concerns, disagreements, ideas, thoughts, questions that maybe are challenging that context, I'm open to hearing them and receiving them." That I'm not so...dogmatic is the wrong word. But I'm not so...pig-headed is also not the right word. I'm not so attached to, "This is absolutely 100%. This has to be the context." That I have the humility to go, "I might also be wrong, in which case, challenge me on that." But I have to make a decision based on some level of certainty, on some sort of context that I observe at the time. Do you agree? Disagree?

Jen: I agree. My mind is spinning in a thousand different directions right now.

Pete: So is mine.

Jen: Okay, this may or may not even be relevant to the conversation. So listeners, just stick with me for a second.

Pete: Welcome to the podcast, listeners. Welcome to The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay. There is a revival of Phantom of the Opera coming to New York City.

Pete: I love the way this has started. Keep going.

Jen: It is a complete reimagining, immersive production of Phantom of the Opera. So if you think you know Phantom of the Opera, you do not know what they are about to do with the show here in New York.

Pete: Cool.

Jen: Okay. So already, this feels sort of out of the box. They have started a marketing campaign that is so unbelievable. And everybody is talking about it. And it was so risky and so innovative, and now, you know, so successful that I imagine that everyone else is going to start copying this idea which no commercial show has ever really done before, or at least done successfully. So in this case, there's a different version of leadership, right? Like, they're leading a new way of thinking about how to market a theatrical production in New York City. But in this case, leadership is innovation. And part of what's thrilling about innovation is the uncertainty.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So like, if you went into this and you were like, "I have an idea for a marketing campaign that has never been executed before, and it's either going to be the greatest thing that's ever happened or the worst thing that's ever happened," people who want to be led by innovation are like, "Sign me up. Let's see how this goes. Because if it lands, kudos to us. And if it doesn't, we better have a Plan B." But I do think that sometimes leaders feel the pressure to be innovators, and that is not always what's called for.

Pete: Right. Yeah. I mean, again, it goes back to the context that we find ourselves in. Is this a time to experiment, and be like a scientist, and try something innovative? Or is this a time to have conviction in an existing way forward, or a version of something you've known before that is tried and tested, that you know will likely lead to a good outcome? This is another side bar that I think relates. I just can't help but think of Brené Brown when she talks about vulnerability, and how this ties in.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That she tells so many funny stories (and I'll find one and put it in the Box O' Goodies) of how she's, you know, the one that sticks to mind for me, is she's done this keynote to a bunch of really senior leaders and founders of big tech startups, and made the case for being a little more vulnerable in the way you lead. And someone came up to her after the event and goes, "Oh, I'm so on board with vulnerability, Brené. Like, I absolutely love what you were going to say. I'm going to call my investors tomorrow and tell them we have three months of runway left in our organization, and that like we're really really struggling financially." And she was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no. Don't do that."

Jen: "No."

Pete: “Did you hear what I said? That's not what I said. I didn't say, 'Tell everyone all of the challenges that you have about the organization.' Don't tell your investors that you have three months runway, because you need to have conviction and confidence in them to help create more investment down the line." That, vulnerability without boundaries is not actually vulnerability.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I feel like maybe there's a parallel here, which is like, you know, uncertainty without boundaries or leading without boundaries isn't actually leading or isn't actually certainty. That, there is a context that is relevant for us to be an innovator, or to stick to the path, or to admit that we might not know the answer to something, or to go, "You know what? I'm really confident that this is the way forward." All of this is so contextual. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing that if you've come to this episode for certainty on how to navigate uncertainty, you're going to be frustrated because we're just throwing around a bunch of possibilities.

Jen: Ah, that's so funny. So, vulnerability without boundaries isn't vulnerability. And leadership without uncertainty isn't leadership.

Pete: That's it. That's it. That's the tagline. Get the bumper stickers ready. Leadership without uncertainty is not leadership. You did it.

Jen: And so, Pete, how are you going to answer your client's question?

Pete: I mean, in an annoying way for them. Which is to say, there is no silver bullet answer to this question. What we can do is focus on what is certain. Which is, in my mind, "What is in our control?" Which is, in my mind, "How are you showing up in this uncertainty? Are you showing up with confidence and conviction, if and when it's required? Are you showing up with humility and questions, if and when that's required? Are you showing up with empathy and grace and a little compassion, if and when that's required?" That, I wish there was a, "Oh, these are three steps that you can do to navigate all uncertainty all the time." But I actually think it comes back to focusing on how you're showing up, on the macro and on the micro, when you walk in the room, virtual or otherwise.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.