The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 350 - Less is More

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Well, hello, Jennifer.

Jen: Today, I want to talk to you about a concept I learned from our Lord and Savior Stephen Sondheim, the greatest musical theater composer ever. And that is: less is more.

Pete: I mean, I feel like we just need to dive right in, in the spirit of this rule. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I'm trying to channel this rule and not add any more questions or context at this point, because I feel like you're about to give it to me, Jen. Hit me.

Jen: Okay, so the context is that Stephen Sondheim, in his two-volume collection of his complete lyrics, shared his rules for himself for writing. And there are three rules. They are: "Content dictates form." "God is in the details." And, "Less is more." And that is followed by: "All in the service of clarity, without which nothing else matters." So the point of these things, the point of content dictates form: clarity. God is in the details, why? Clarity. Less is more, why? Clarity. It's all about finding clarity.

Pete: Clarity for yourself, which then allows clarity for other people. In the way that you communicate it, you're being clear. I like this. I love it. Clarity, clarity, clarity.

Jen: Yes. And so, even though he's sharing this in relationship to his lyric writing, you can apply this really anywhere in life.

Pete: Totally. I mean, it reminds me of work you and I have done with people on their keynotes, or helping people be better communicators. It's like, "How can you get to the essence of what the message is, rather than tell this rambling story that kind of eventually ends up at the message ten minutes into your keynote?" It's like, what's the point? Get there. Less is more.

Jen: Exactly. And all in service of clarity. So this month in the Career Collective, which is the online community that I run specifically around career building at my studio, we have been playing with this concept of less is more, in order to find more clarity for ourselves in various parts of our career and in what we're building. So I thought I would share with you some of the things that came up in a recent conversation with that group, in case it is helpful to you and to our listeners.

Pete: Definitely.

Jen: Okay. So the first thing is that human beings have a bias that behavioral scientists call subtraction aversion or loss aversion, which is, essentially, we don't like to lose things. When we have something, we don't like to lose it. And if we are facing a problem or a challenge, and we're looking for a solution, our impulse is to add things as a solution, rather than to take things away.

Pete: Oh god, I'm laughing and smiling because I'm just thinking about how much this applies to toddlers.

Jen: Oh my god, wait, wait, wait. Say more. That's so funny.

Pete: I just, I mean, I literally dropped off Ollie this morning at daycare and he wanted to take this little monkey toy that he loves, that plays music. He wanted to take it in the car with him. He was like, "I bring the monkey?" And I was like, "Great. Let's bring the monkey. No worries." And we parked out the front of daycare, and in my mind, I'm like, "Okay, so I'm going to have to subtract this toy to get him to daycare, but I feel like he's not going to be happy about it. So, what am I going to add? How am I going to negotiate this transaction?" And I had to add the promise of, "Oh, you get to go inside and play with your friends. And there's a sandpit, and there'll be a digger." And he was like, "Oh yeah, I'm down with that." And so, he let me take the monkey. And I said, "I'll leave it here, and we can get it when we get back." But I couldn't just say, "I'm taking the monkey, and there's no replacement." I had to, at that age, especially...oh god, I feel like toddlers are the epitome of subtraction aversion.

Jen: Right. Well, as you're thinking about the goals that you have for yourself in your life, in your career, I know I fall victim to this tendency all the time in my own work. And it's funny, because I'm great at helping other people avoid it. But when it comes to myself, I'm like, "And you know, I want to spice things up at the studio. I know, I'll add ten brand new classes."

Pete: Oh god, it's so true.

Jen: You know? "I'll add all of these things." So anyway, the theme this month is: less is more. And so, to begin with, it's like, "Where in your life, where in your career, where in your work, where in your relationships might you have inadvertently already taken a more is more approach?" And then, another way of thinking about this is, "In what area of your life, in what area of your career are you currently lacking clarity?" So, you could find what to focus on by coming at it from either direction. Like, "Where did I take a more is more approach?" Or like, "Where am I feeling confusion or noise or sort of muddled right now? Because it's possible that there's a more is more situation going on over there."

Pete: Oh, I like this. So if I identify something where I realize I'm not clear on, I could then look at, "Is the reason I'm not clear because I'm trying to do too much?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: "And what would it look like to do less?" Is that what you're saying?

Jen: Yeah, it could be. So like, here's an example from one of my clients. The complaint is, "I'm getting feedback from casting...," so I'm talking about an actor right now, "I'm getting feedback from casting that I'm confusing. That nobody knows what to do with me. And I don't understand where this feedback is coming from, because I sent them ten different videos to show them what I do."

Pete: Right.

Jen: So, this is the more is more approach. And throwing more at this problem isn't providing clarity. It's creating confusion.

Pete: That is a brilliant example. Okay, now I'm thinking about this in my world as it relates to leaders who have inevitably got way too many things to do on their to-do list, or are struggling to get the direction or the feedback they want from perhaps an executive. And I think that I could think of a few examples off the top of my head where the reason is a version of what you described, which is, "I gave them five options, and I need them to make a decision so I can execute on the one." And the executive, in most instances, hasn't got the time to analyze the five options, and is actually looking for you to probably go, "Here's the one direction I think we should take. What do you think?"

Jen: Yes

Pete: Now, not to make this about me and my toddler again, however, one thing that Tracey and I have been doing (which we learned off a friend or...I can't remember where we learned this, but it's been working really well) is to give Ollie two options, as opposed to seven.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So we might say something like, "Do you want to have yogurt or eggs for breakfast? You decide."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Rather than, "What do you want for breakfast?" And he's like, "I don't know. Like there's so many options. I don't even know how to answer that question. Like, what are you talking about?" So this idea of like deliberately reducing the optionality, I think enables someone to have clarity. Yeah, okay, I'm just spelling out the aha moment that you've already had. Sorry, I'm getting there. I'm getting there.

Jen: So this is less is more in practice, when it comes to decision-making or interacting with other people and giving them a decision to make. And then, there are other ways you can apply less is more in other areas. Like as an example, if you are working to improve something in your technique, like a couple episodes ago, we talked about your swimming coach and how she was like, "Just do six strokes, instead of swimming an entire mile." You're looking to improve something in your craft, looking to improve something in your skill. Maybe...again, I'm going to use examples from my own life. Maybe instead of singing ten songs in your voice lesson, if you focus on one or maybe even one section of that song, you'll find the clarity you're looking for around this technical element of vocal production.

Pete: I love it. This is so good. I'm also fascinated by the psychology of why we sometimes think it's more helpful to throw more at the table. Is it because it doesn't feel hard enough or like it's valuable enough to only analyse two things? And so, we think, "Oh, it's more generous to throw more at them, because then they have more understanding of what I can do." And what we're actually saying is, "No, it's actually more generous, in the spirit of clarity, to embrace this rule of less is more. And it's actually harder." I'm totally going to absolutely butcher and murder this quote, but I'll put the real one in the Box O' Goodies. But I can paraphrase it to be something along the lines of, "I was going to write you a shorter letter, but I ran out of time." I don't even know who said that, probably a famous American president at some point. And I think it's so true. It actually can be easier and less time consuming to write the long thing, to give the more option as opposed to the less.

Jen: That's right. So, here is a sort of fun exercise that we came up with.

Pete: Great.

Jen: So well, let me back up and say, you, Pete, I think identify as an Upholder in the Gretchen Rubin Four Tendencies framework. Is that right?

Pete: That would be correct. The ol' rule follower over here. Yep. That's me.

Jen: Right. And you love a to-do list, right? If it's on the to-do list, it gets done.

Pete: It's done. I'm holding it up right now. You can see all those things crossed off. It's done.

Jen: Yes. So sometimes when I'm working with Upholders, I'll ask them to add an item to the to-do list, which is, "Reduce the to-do list by half."

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: So, that gets on the to-do list. And then, the task is to get rid of the things that aren't really going to be that impactful or make a difference.

Pete: That is good. I like that. I'm going to use that. That's good.

Jen: Right? So in the spirit of that, this really fun exercise we did that actually led to so many aha moments was, "What if we, instead of creating a to-do list in an effort to move toward a goal, what if we created a to-don't list?"

Pete: Oh, tell me more.

Jen: So, okay. Let's say that something that I'm working toward is getting a new job. (This is not what I personally am working toward, but somebody out there is working toward getting a new job.) So, I could do so many things. I could scroll social media sites and type into the search bar, "Seeking," and then, read every single post. Or I could spend hours choosing the font and color for my resume. Or I could spend lots of my resources getting new professional executive headshots taken. So what I might do is go, "Oh, what are all the ways I could spend resources that don't really make that much of a difference? I'm going to add that to my to-don't list. Or ways that I know I distract myself? So on my to-don't list is, 'To-don't scroll social media,' or, 'To-don't worry about the aesthetics of the resume until after you know what's going on it'."

Pete: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Okay, I'm onboard with this.

Jen: Things like that.

Pete: Things you know that are a distraction, yeah.

Jen: Yes. For myself, "To-don't get engaged in a different task when I'm in the middle of a different task." I will distract myself, and then, I go down this whole family tree of tasks, and then, I forget what I started with.

Pete: I'm the, "To-don't spend all the time on the font on the resume," was the example you used, "...or the proposal you're presenting." The color scheme, the layout of the PDF that you're putting it in...what am I doing?

Jen: Right.

Pete: What am I doing?

Jen: Oh my gosh. I'm so susceptible to that, yeah. So I might put on my to-don't list, "To-don't spend more than thirty minutes researching," because I will spend hours researching something. To-don't do that.

Pete: "To-don't." This is good. This is good. I like it. Do you get to then cross it off, if you to-don't it?

Jen: Well, Pete, that's what we did this month.

Pete: Oh my god.

Jen: Is, everyone got a Less Is More, To-Don't tracker. That was my little gift to everyone. "Here's a tracker."

Pete: That's brilliant.

Jen: "See how many days in a row you can to-don't do that."

Pete: That is hilarious. I thought you were going to say that, "We explored this idea of a done list." Have you heard about this?

Jen: Yes. To-done. Yeah.

Pete: As opposed to a "to-do". It's like, it's actually just a "done". I think "done-zo" is even...I don't know where I heard that. Someone once used that, one of my clients. And you get to write down all the things that you have done. Because then, at the end of the day, you get to go, "Oh, I was productive today," or, "I did do a lot today." That's a completely different version of this though.

Jen: I've heard of that. And Gretchen Rubin calls that a "ta-da list". Like, "Here are the things I did. Ta-da!"

Pete: Oh, "Ta-da!” That's good. I like that. I like that. That's good.

Jen: But some people were like, "Oh, I don't know if I like 'to-don't'. Because that is so restricting."

Pete: Right.

Jen: And so, some people instead made a "to-do-less" list.

Pete: Okay, yeah.

Jen: I think both are great.

Pete: Whatever works for you.

Jen: Whatever works, whatever works. But the idea is to give yourself more clarity.

Pete: Yeah. And permission to do less, in service of clarity.

Jen: Right.

Pete: This is somewhat related.

Jen: Yeah?

Pete: You just reminded me of this. And once again, I cannot recall where I've learned this or picked this up or where this has come from, but I feel like I've internalized this and I really love it. This idea that at the start of a day, I mean, there's a practice that I have, that many people have talked about, where I try and think about, "What's the number one most important thing to do today? And can I just focus on that, for between two or three hours? But like, as long as I need to get that one task done. And only when that task is done, can I move onto the other thing." Now, I've heard this rule articulated, the rule I'm about to share, through the lens of writing, so I'll use that as an example. If you are someone who is seeking to write a chapter of a book, and you give yourself that as your number one task, you need to get done that day. This rule, off the back of that, I absolutely love, which is: You can do nothing. You can stare at the page for two hours, but you can't do anything else. So you can either write or do absolutely nothing, but you're not allowed to do anything else. So, the less is more is: it's either the task or stare into space. And essentially what happens is, no one wants to stare into space for two hours. So eventually, you start typing. And eventually, you write a sentence. And then, you start editing the sentence. And off you go. And maybe, you write heaps. And maybe, you write a little bit and you stare into space for a little bit. But I think it's that moment where you go, "Oh, I'm stuck, so I'll pick up a different task," is where you totally lose, at least personally, you lose the thread. You lose momentum. You lose the less is more philosophy. You lose clarity. And so, just to share that that's something I think about, is not just identifying the task, but then going, "You're either allowed to do that task or nothing and nothing else. There's no in between."

Jen: Oh, I love that. Okay, Pete, you know this, I've been on kind of a fitness kick for a while. And one of the very challenging things about that is having to eat my body weight in grams of protein every day. I mean, I hate it so much. I mean, one can only eat so many boneless, skinless chicken breasts. I'm so over it.

Pete: Who knew we need so much protein? It's wild.

Jen: So, you know, one of the ways I've been successful is, I have a small list of items, like a less is more. And when I started this, I was like, "Let me find every possible recipe that exists." And I went down the rabbit hole for hours and hours and hours. And now, it's like, "To-don't spend all of that time finding recipes. To-do make the recipes that you ate already that you liked." It's fine.

Pete: Right. Pick two or three, and just eat those.

Jen: And so, I'm using that as an example because, "To-don't go down the rabbit hole." Using my, I call this my Internal Google Translator, turning negative into affirmative language, so what am I going to do instead? So I've told myself, "To-don't go down the rabbit hole," or, "To-don't have that zero protein snack. To-do instead, make something you already know, and eat the protein." So, there's like a second step in this. So if what you have landed on is, you're trying to get a project across the finish line, what's on your to-don't list? "To-don't scroll social media during business hours." Great. Now, if we translate that to something in the affirmative, what can you do?

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So, it again provides the clarity around how to make progress, how to move forward.

Pete: Yeah. This feels like it speaks a little bit to what I was describing with Ollie at drop-off.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I feel like it is articulated in James Clear's book, Atomic Habits, where he says getting rid of negative habits is a really important thing to do. And one philosophy or one strategy you can take to do that is to replace negative habits with something else.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Which, I feel like is what you're describing. So it's like, "If I feel myself wanting to pick up my phone and scroll, instead, I'm going to replace that with reading a page from a book." Or, "If I find myself with twenty minutes in between a meeting and I'm tempted to just check my email, to-don't do that, to-do call a friend," whatever it is. But it's like a deliberate, "If this, then that," kind of framework, to get rid of a habit and to build a more positive habit. All again, to your point, as long as it's in service of the clarity that you're seeking, or to move the project forward that you want to move forward, or, in your case, to eat your body weight in protein.

Jen: Oh, gosh. But I do have to say, Pete, it's been working.

Pete: Of course. Okay. Alright. Well, I mean, I feel like, in the spirit of this conversation, I don't have anything else to say. I think that to-don't ramble, Pete, and to-do sum this up by saying: If seeking clarity, look for opportunities to subtract, to start a to-don't list, and to embrace the Lord and Savior Stephen Sondheim's rule of less is more.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.