The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 352 - Geniuses Are Humans

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Well, I'm just coming off three days of the retreat I hosted for coaches and teachers. And if I'm being honest, I barely have any brain cells left, because the amount of focus and creativity it required was like kind of astronomical. But it was so rewarding. And I'm guessing that my next one hundred podcast episodes I tee up will be about this in some way. But one of the things that came up, I thought might be really interesting for us to unpack, because I think you and I both have to deal with this every day. And it's like a real thing. And we're going to sound very blessed for having to deal with it. But the question is, this was asked by one of the coaches, "What do you do when the person in front of you is already amazing at what they're doing?"

Pete: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cue imposter syndrome. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I feel like you, in particular, with world-class Broadway performers in your offices and halls every day, must experience this a lot.

Jen: Every single day.

Pete: So how did you respond? Why don't we break this down?

Jen: Well, over the years, I've learned some lessons. And in some cases, I've had to learn the same lesson over and over again. So, I'm going to take you back now almost twenty years. And I had a client who was so extraordinary, that like every time I saw them work, I was like, "Whoa, this is next level. Like, give this person the Tony Award already."

Pete: Right.

Jen: Which, years later, they won.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But back in the day, there was a class...I was very young coach at this time...and I asked them to stay after class. And I was like, "I feel like I may have gotten you as far as I can take you. You're so excellent. I think you may need to go somewhere else to get more." And I thought I was being very generous, being like, "It's okay if you want to leave me. Go on."

Pete: That's amazing, because I feel like a lot of people would hang on to clients like that for some reason. I feel like that's a super generous, humble posture to take.

Jen: Yeah. Well, they looked me right in the eye and said, "Don't ever say that to me again. You'll figure it out."

Pete: Oh my god, what? That's wild. "I'm actually so good that I even know more about what you're giving me than what you realize you're giving me." That's so good.

Jen: Yeah. They were like, "Yeah, you'll figure it out. It's going to be fine."

Pete: Oh, dear.

Jen: So, that was really interesting.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: Kind of shook me, to the point that twenty years later, I remember it. At the root of that was all this trust that we had built. It's not about you having to constantly come up with new things to teach me. It's like, when you find the person who is going to push you to reach your potential, keep coming back because your potential is constantly growing.

Pete: Right. And maybe what you don't realize as the coach, in that moment, is that they're only able to show up as the genius in front of you because of the space you've created. That maybe they wouldn't show up as daring or creative or genius-like if they went to Joe's Musical Theatre Down the Road (just making that name up), as opposed to Jen Waldman Studio.

Jen: Joe's Musical Theatre Down the Road.

Pete: Terrible name. I feel like I should come up with another one, but let's leave it because I'm happy to be hung out to dry on that one.

Jen: Ah, I love it.

Pete: Alright, Joe's Musical Theatre. But do you know what I mean? It's like, you take for granted the space you created, because you created it. And what you don't realize is, perhaps you only see the genius because of what you've created.

Jen: Well, years later, I worked with another person who was a Tony winner. At that point, this person had already won their Tony, and they came to me for a coaching on a recommendation. And I remembered that other time, when I was like, "Oh my gosh, what could I teach you?" And so, I entered that coaching being like, "This person has acknowledged that they need help, and they want me to help them. It's not my place to be like, 'I don't know what I have to teach you.'" And so, I went in with a totally different posture with that client. And I think I was actually very helpful to them.

Pete: Interesting, yeah. So, you give the benefit of the doubt to the person who's coming to you.

Jen: Right. So, there's that angle. But then, the other one is that people who are excellent at what they do, do not need their coaches to constantly be telling them that they're excellent at what they do. They already know. That's not why they're there. And especially in recent years, I have found that some of my clients who are...you know, they're unbelievable. They're next level extraordinary. They kind of like, I don't know if "roll their eyes" is too aggressive a statement, but they're like, "Really? This is what we're spending our time on? I'm here to work. I'm here to get pushed. I don't need you to tell me what a great singer I am. I know this. Like, focus on the things that I could be improving." So, that's just like a really interesting situation. And when it came up in the retreat this weekend, I was like, "Yeah, you're going to encounter this. And remember, that the person who is standing in front of you wouldn't be standing there if they were satisfied."

Pete: Right. Oof. They wouldn't be standing there if they were satisfied. Yeah.

Jen: So they wouldn't come to you for coaching if they were like, "Got it all in the bag. I'm going to rest on my laurels." No, they have come to you and they are entrusting you with their gifts. And your role, as coach, is to help them use what they've got in maybe new ways, maybe different ways, deeper ways in order to expand their potential. That's it. And it's true, whether the person is absolutely amazing or if the person has a lot of growth to still happen.

Pete: Yeah. Oh god, I have so many different threads I want to pull. Let me just throw a couple out there. First is, that experience you described twenty years ago, I feel like it's a version of the experience I had seven years ago, when you messaged me on Slack during the altMBA and said, "Can we have a coaching session? And I want you to ask me as many hard questions as possible." And I've told this story so many times on this podcast, but I sat down and wrote as many questions that I could think about on my notepad, which I'd never done before.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Because I think the subtext behind why I did that was, I was wondering, "What could I teach you? What could I help Jen Waldman with?" Because I viewed you and I knew you to be an already accomplished, very successful, very smart, very driven, very creative, brilliant leader. And so, I had my own little moment and version of that. And Kirsty, our mutual friend Kirsty, who was my co-coach said, "What are you doing? Just show up and be Pete."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And we still sort of joke about that to each other, of, "Just be Kirsty," or, "Just be Pete." And what she meant by that is, "Jen's chosen to show up and ask you to ask hard questions. So, it's in service to her for you to do that. Not for you to go, 'But who am I to ask Jen Waldman hard questions?'" It's like, "Shut up. Just ask the questions."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And lo and behold, here we are.

Jen: And the thing is, people who are extraordinary at what they do, across many different fields, many different disciplines, many different industries, people who are extraordinary at what they do are still working on getting better at what they do.

Pete: I agree. I feel like there's a correlation, a direct correlation with like those that are extraordinary and geniuses and high-performing in, no matter what field they're in, are often the ones who are still just as thirsty for more feedback and critique and frameworks and improvements than anyone else. So I guess it's no coincidence, right?

Jen: Right. And once upon a time, we did an episode called Coaching and Teaching. "Coaching and Teaching," remember that song?

Pete: There's a jingle, "Coaching and Teaching." That was like Episode 50 or something. And I still remember that jingle, yeah.

Jen: Yeah, it was a long time ago. But I do think sometimes, where we get in our head is going like, "What could I possibly teach this person that they don't already know?" And the answer might be, "Don't focus on the teaching. Focus on the coaching." How do you get them to use what they already know, what they already have, in a different way or to see it through a different lens?

Pete: Yeah. How do you help them get out of their own way? How do you meet them where they're at, and help them get where they're already going? These are different ways of saying some version of the same thing, I agree. So in the leadership context, in my world, I see this a lot with really, really high-functioning leaders. Often they're in the C-suite, but not always. And the same is true, in that they are very much like, "No one's giving me critical feedback. I want you to challenge me and ask me hard questions and tell me what I'm not doing right. Don't just sprinkle me in praise, because that's not going to necessarily help me improve." The amount of times that someone in the C-suite will ask me to be critical to them and/or glaze over when you start going, "Well, I see you doing this well, and I see you doing this well," and they're like, "Yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever. Tell me what I can do better. Tell me how I can improve. Tell me what I'm not doing well."

Jen: Right.

Pete: I mean, I literally had this conversation with someone in the C-suite yesterday, who, I'm doing some work for one of their teams. And they said to me, "If you uncover something in this team that can help me lead them better, tell me. Please tell me. Challenge me. Make me better, so that I can make them better." And yeah, so it's another version of that. I could easily go, "But you're the CEO. What could you possibly have to gain from improvement?"

Jen: One of the things that I just always remind myself is that Oprah Winfrey, one of my personal heroes...

Pete: Shout out Oprah, we know you're listening.

Jen: ...has coaches.

Pete: Right, right, right. And in a similar vein, what I wrote down at the start of this is, "Even geniuses are human."

Jen: Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. Say that again, for the people in the back and for the bumper sticker, please.

Pete: I mean, I wrote that like a minute into this podcast. "Even geniuses are human." And what I was thinking about when I wrote that down was, just because you think this person is a genius who has nothing to gain from you doesn't mean they're not walking around with a bunch of doubts, insecurities, vulnerabilities, questions, unclear expectations as to where they should go and what they could do. That yes, sometimes we have a genius who is very aware of all their superpowers and what they're good at, and they're looking for the things that they could do even better. But sometimes, we actually have a genius who might not even realize just how much of a genius they are, or just how effective a leader they could be or changemaker they might be. And so, I mean, I'm constantly reminded of this. And I try and remind people that I work with one-on-one of this, that everyone around you that you perceive to be a genius, that you perceive to have their shit together, that you perceive to be far better at this thing or this pursuit that you are working on has doubts, fears, vulnerabilities, questions, all the above. One of the reasons I like certain types of podcasts with people who I would say one could put on a pedestal because they're world class in their field is, the certain podcasts that do really well is when you hear them start to say things and you're like, "Oh my god, you are so human. Like, you are riddled with self-doubt, and insecurity, and fear, and you're just trying to do your best, in spite of all that or leveraging all of that. And so, I just think it's so healthy to remind ourselves that these people are human, and they want to improve too, and they're aware of the fact that they're not perfect too.

Jen: You know, it's just, it's occurring to me that it's kind of funny that we would label someone a genius and then decide that they made a really stupid move by coming to coach with us.

Pete: "You're so smart and so good. So, why did you make such a poor decision in coming here?"

Jen: Right. So a big theme that came up during the coaching retreat this weekend, which I'm sure will become a whole separate episode, is how seeing someone as a genius and then turning that into a reason to doubt yourself is just ego driven. As a good coach, you want to do whatever you can to set your own ego aside, so you can really be of service to the person in front of you. And as a coach, I find myself often reminding my clients that perfection is an unattainable thing, and what we're trying to do is just get better and better and better. And so, deciding that someone you're working with is fully cooked and perfect as they are is completely counter to the entire coaching philosophy.

Pete: Yeah. And unfair to them, yeah. And I'm smiling because...I'm sort of laughing to myself because this entire conversation I believe to be true, about people who opt into showing up to those coaching sessions, that it should tell us enough that they chose to be in front of you or in the class, and they themselves, like you said, as the genius, made the decision that that was a good use of their time. The reason I have a cheeky grin is, sometimes, I experience a room where there maybe is a leader (or five) who perceives themself to be a genius, and has their arms crossed and is looking at you like, "What could you teach me? And what could you help me with?" Because maybe their organization asked them to be in this workshop, that they're running for their leaders. And so, that, to me, just feels worth calling out, because that's a whole different ballgame. There's a, "You prove to me why you are worthy of my time," versus, "I chose to be here because I believe you're worthy of my time. So, help me."

Jen: It's so funny. I have a friend who is a (I don't think this is an overstatement) world-renowned leadership expert. And he tells a story about being on a stage, and someone raising their hand and saying, "What are your credentials?" And he said, "I have none. Next question."

Pete: Oh my god. Diffused, yeah.

Jen: Ah, I love it.

Pete: That's so funny. That's so, yeah. Like if you're the person asking that question, that needs to be convinced as to why we should listen to you, then it's almost like, "You're not who it's for. Move on."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Or I thought you were going to say the answer is, "Well, I have a microphone. Like, I'm the person on stage."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "Someone, somewhere, deemed me worthy enough of having an opinion to share with you. So, don't worry about it."

Jen: But again, there's the ego piece, on both sides of the coin. And just going back to the very top of this, the sort of eye rolling that I get from my clients sometimes, if I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you're like...the voice. Like, you're amazing," and they're like, "Okay, okay," they're helping remove ego from the conversation. Their own, as well.

Pete: Yep. Oh, I love it. This is great.

Jen: So, geniuses are humans too.

Pete: Geniuses are humans too. Yeah. And I mean, this feels ridiculous to say. And if faced with the situation where you feel like a bit of an imposter because you're working with someone who you perceive to be a genius, maybe trust your intuition that they are indeed a genius and they made the decision to be with you, spending their energy and time with you.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.