The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 355 - What the FOOC?

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: I need your help investigating something that I just hadn't really noticed before, but became very evident to me in the last two weeks. And that is that when one has an aha moment about connecting work to purpose and mission and values, it's really easy to start losing sight of or being able to talk about practicalities.

Pete: I think I follow. I've got my magnifying glass on, and I'm curious about how we can avoid going down our own philosophical rabbit holes when we get excited about purpose and work and values. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, now this isn't like that surprising. I've seen this at work before, but the reason it became so hyper-obvious to me in the last two weeks is I met with forty artists, one hour each, in the last two weeks.

Pete: Whoa, forty hours. You have, I mean, I have no doubt you have some reflections on said forty hours.

Jen: Yes, I have so many. But this one in particular really stuck out to me because the reason we were meeting was we were kicking off the Reboot program, which is my summer career coaching and career strategy program for Broadway actors.

Pete: It's that time of year, everybody.

Jen: Right? And so, I asked them to talk to me for an hour about what they want for their future. What kind of a career are they building? What kinds of stories do they want to tell? What kind of people do they want to work with? What kind of impact do they want to make? And I, in advance of this meeting, send them a little video with a framework to think about and two weeks of journal prompts that they do to prepare for this

Pete: Oh my god.

Jen: And they all came in so vulnerable and really ready to share with me their big, hairy, audacious goals for their career, and to talk about having a positive impact, and using their creative work for the power of good, and all of this great stuff. And so, I'm taking pages of notes. And then, I go, "Okay, now let's talk about practicalities. How much money do you want to make?" And literally zero out of forty people could answer the question.

Pete: Whoa.

Jen: And I wasn't asking like, "In your dream world, like what is the most extravagant thing?" It's like, "Okay, we're working on goals together for the next four months. How can we eliminate things that don't allow you to feed yourself?" You know?

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: And literally, not one of them was able to answer the question on the first go-round. So I have been thinking about this a lot, because I'm like, "Ooh, we have to be able to talk about the practical things. Like, I want to be able to feed myself. I want to be able to sleep in my own bed. Or like, I have children, and I'd like to see my children." You know, things like that.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And I just know in my heart of hearts that it's not because they didn't know the answer. It's that they were embarrassed to answer it.

Pete: "Embarrassed" is an interesting choice of words. Obviously, we can dig into that.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I mean, my take from it is, it's easier to not talk about the actual practical realities of the thing that we are striving to do, especially if the thing we're striving to do is hard or going to make the practical even harder. Like, if I practically have to acknowledge that I want to earn this amount of money, then I need to somehow build a bridge between this utopian vision that I have that I'm so excited about and how that's going to enable me to feed myself and my family. Or if I want to have to acknowledge the reality that I want to see my kids or pick up my kids from school every day, I have to acknowledge the reality that that means, you know, I don't know, stopping work at 3pm so I can go and pick them up from school, or whatever it is.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah, it's kind of scary to acknowledge the practicalities of where our goals meet our reality.

Jen: Yeah. And hearing you say "scary", I also agree with you that my previous selection of "embarrassed" may have been inaccurate. And maybe it's more about being afraid that we can't have both things at the same time.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I like to believe, Pete, because I've seen it, I've experienced it, I know it is possible, that we can have both things at the same time. And to be fair to all forty of these people, eventually, they did answer the question. But it took a lot of coaxing, and basically saying, "You're allowed to want to live a certain way. Like, you're allowed."

Pete: Right, yeah. Okay, this is reminding me of something that you and I...oh god, I remember where we were. We were at your old office in New York, looking at the whiteboard, having some of our many discussions, and we were talking about goal setting. And I believe it was you that said something along the lines of, "The goal achieving is overrated. But it's the setting of the goal that is the important part." Because if done well in setting a goal, we're kind of marrying these two things. We're going, "Here is this lofty vision and thing that I'd love to create with some specificity, of course, based on my vision and where I want to be and my values. But then, what are the things I need to do in order to make that happen? Who are the people that can literally help me make this happen? What are the things in my way that I need to figure out how to navigate to make that happen?" That the process of looking at those things, in my mind, feels like the process of taking your amazing goal and vision and idea, and then, going, "Practically, how might we execute this?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so, to me, that was what I took from that riff that you had at the time. Which was like, "Yeah, I mean, if you achieve it, amazing. But the process of just getting it down and figuring out the practicalities might open up some doors that you didn't know were available to you, might help you see that actually it's harder or easier than you thought it was, because practically speaking, there are all these other things at play. And by the way, practically speaking, maybe there's all these people that can help you get there."

Jen: Yes. And I've been in goal setting heaven with my Reboot cohort. This is the part of the program that we're in literally as we speak. Just yesterday, I did a big brain dump about goal setting for them. And I maintain the thing that I shared with you back in the old office on 38th Street, that the setting of the goal is the actual point. The reaching of the goal, who cares? Because on the day you set the goal, you know what you know. And tomorrow, you'll know something different. And so, the goal might change. But it's actually pointing yourself in a specific direction and figuring out how you're going to move in that direction that matters. And right now, I'm just thinking, when you're not willing to answer questions about practicalities, how can the rubber actually meet the road? And how can you gain traction in the direction you want to go? It's got to be so much harder. Like, just going back to these amazing, incredible, brilliantly talented people I'm blessed enough to work with, for a lot of them I would say, "So what is the minimum that we have to be looking to bring in income-wise?" And they'd go, "I don't know. How would I even know?" And I'm like, "Well, all of the potential contracts you could work under are published in our union's membership portal. And every single one of them has a table in the contract that says what the minimum is that you could make working under that contract. So, it's not like this information isn't out there. It's there, you're choosing not to look at it because it's scary."

Pete: It's so scary, yeah. I feel like it's fear. I feel like it's because it's scary. And it makes it real.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because it's like, "There it is in black and white, in writing. The actual amount, if all of these things happened, that I would be earning. And so, what does that mean? What does that mean for me?"

Jen: I think it is...I'm just having this aha moment now. It's scarcity mindset. So like, here's an example. I have a client in this program who, her desire is to sleep in her own bed every night. She doesn't want to go out on a tour. She doesn't want to go out into the regions. She wants to live and work in New York. So what we have to do in order to make that happen is set some boundaries and say, "You're going to...it's not just, you're going to say no if these offers come in. You're not even going to pursue those opportunities."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "Because they are not in alignment with what you want." And then, scarcity mindset pops up and is like, "But is there enough for me in the space that I say I want to be?"

Pete: Yeah. That's interesting. Because the fear of the answer to that question stops you from finding out the answer to that question, prior to starting on your journey. But what I feel like we're saying or what you're saying with the practicality of this is, you could probably answer that question of, "Is there enough that would enable me to do the work that I want to do and stay in my bed every single night?" I could literally quantify that right now, and then, go, "Oh, it is actually possible," or, "It's not actually possible, so what are the other constraints I need to look at lifting or what are the things I need to be doing differently? Because it's not: My head is in the sand and I'm hoping that it's possible." But...who said, "Hope is not a strategy?"

Jen: I don't know, but that's great.

Pete: I can't remember who said that. But it's good, right? Like, hope is not a strategy. You've got to go, "If that is the thing that I want, if that is success for me, then can I learn as much as possible right now about whether that's possible?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: I'm right there with you, forty artists, by the way, that this is way easier said than done.

Jen: Oh my gosh, absolutely.

Pete: It is super hard to stare into the practicalities of what we actually want to do in this world. I totally hear that.

Jen: It's so interesting to me that you asked the same question twice with an emphasis on a different word, and the meaning of the sentence changed completely.

Pete: Oh my god, I did? I don't even remember what I said.

Jen: First, you said, "Is there enough for me?" And then, you said, "But you could find out, is there enough for me?"

Pete: Oh, interesting.

Jen: Which is, P.S., like a great public speaking exercise around emphasizing certain words to express something different. But that's so interesting to me. Because in the first iteration of that, "Is there enough for me," that it feels like it is also living in this sort of like nebulous fantasy space.

Pete: "I'll never know." Yeah.

Jen: Right. But, "Is there enough for me? Is there," is about the here and now. So I don't know, that was interesting.

Pete: It's like, "I'm going to find out. Is there? I'm going to go and find out right now." Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. That's fascinating. There you go. Thanks for listening to something I didn't even know I was saying. The other thing this reminds me of is like opportunity cost, and that is the idea that everything costs something. And so, committing to do something practically costs the time and energy that we need to make that happen, that doesn't get to be spent elsewhere. I feel like there's this interesting overlap between hope is not a strategy and the opportunity costs. Because if I am not specific and practical and I'm relying on hope as my strategy, then maybe I don't need to consider the costs of if I want to make this happen. Versus like, there's the practical realities of what you need to do to make this happen. And then, there's the flip side, which is the practical opportunity cost of you doing so, of choosing to spend every single night in your bed in New York. The opportunity cost of that is the offer to go (I'm making this up) and travel in England and perform in London. It's like, that opportunity is the cost. And so, you have to be cool with that. You have to be comfortable with the opportunity costs.

Jen: Pete, we're having a very witchy moment right now.

Pete: What do you mean? I've never been described as a witch, but here we go.

Jen: Because I was literally about to bring up one of my clients who is moving from New York to London. And because she's moving into an unknown market, she is actually excited about figuring out what is practically possible there. Whereas for a lot of my New York-based clients, there's something about investigating the thing they (and I'm putting this in huge air quotes) should "already know" that is keeping them a little stuck.

Pete: Fascinating. And amazing that your client is excited about that move. Because the same is true here, right? Is, "I'm moving to London, while the opportunity cost is, now, I can't say yes to the thing that's in New York, if something was to be created. And I just have to be comfortable with that, because the benefits of being in London and exploring that new opportunity outweigh the opportunity costs." And so, I don't know if this is an aha or an obvious thing to say, but it feels like all of this specificity requires us to get comfortable with the fact that we can't do everything all at once. And so, in order to say yes to things, we do have to say no to other things. And I don't mean this to fly in the face of what you said, which is like, you could probably have it all. But I mean to say that thinking that you can be everything to everyone, again, is not a strategy that's going to be effective. Versus, "I'm here to be this specific thing in this specific way with these particular constraints, and this is the particular way I'm going to go about that."

Jen: Hmm. Okay, two things. Number one, is what we're talking about fear of opportunity costs? And if so, how great is FOOC?

Pete: FOOC. I knew you were going to say that.

Jen: I'm obsessed.

Pete: I wrote it down. FOOC. Oh, FOOC.

Jen: What the FOOC?

Pete: What the FOOC?

Jen: I'm going to be using that in future conversations. I'm going to say...

Pete: “WTF: What the FOOC?”

Jen: "This sounds like fear of opportunity cost. So, what the FOOC?"

Pete: I love it. I love it. What the FOOC?

Jen: Love it. Okay, Pete, I have a collection of my most read and shared blog posts. And one of them is a blog post I wrote a long time ago called, Should I Take This Job? And in it, I essentially offer up four different scales that need to be weighed when you're considering whether or not to say yes to an opportunity that has been presented to you. And these are things like career advancement, the practical concerns of like money / health insurance / 401k / all of that, social impact, and for my clients, artistry and creativity. And that blog post was written because I get asked that question, "Should I take this job," so frequently that I like having something to say. "Have you thought about these things? Think about these things. And then, let's have a conversation." But what I am trying to do with the Reboot cohort, and what I think we're talking about here, is making those decisions before you go for an opportunity, before an opportunity is presented. So it is, "I should go after this job if it meets these criteria," like knowing what your bottom line is ahead of time. And also, we talk about this constantly on this show, given circumstances change, context changes, and we've got to always be looking at the context. So, I might have an answer today. My circumstances might change tomorrow, so I might need to change my answer tomorrow. But it's good to know where I stand today.

Pete: Definitely, yeah. I wrote that down as creating a practical filter that we can look at opportunities through and go, "Does this pass by a filter that I came out with, very practically speaking?"

Jen: Yes.

Pete: There's an idea that I borrowed off...I don't even know who, which is not that helpful. But the idea itself is really helpful. And that is this idea of a minimum engagement fee. I have introduced this in my own business eighteen months ago. And it has been so helpful to have, you know, almost like a policy. You call it a policy for yourself. And you can call it a policy to prospective clients, because people tend to not argue with policies for some reason, sort of like what Shane Parrish would talk about with rules. Rules have got this strange, mystic quality where people don't necessarily challenge them as much. So you could go, "Oh, sorry, I have a rule or I have a policy that the minimum engagement fee for our work together is...," insert amount here. And you can literally say that to people. And they might go, "Oh, okay. Well, we could do that." If they haven't got that amount initially upfront, they might actually find out they do. Or you can just say to yourself, "Well, this opportunity is well below my minimum engagement fee, so I just say no and move on, and find something else."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And it makes the decision so much easier than going, "I could stretch, I guess, if I did this. And then, you know, I drove to the out of town place, but I still stayed in my bed that night. I just got home at 2 a.m., so like, I'm technically still sleeping in my own bed. But like, I'm sort of stretching that minimum engagement amount." I'm trying to build off that example, but you know what I mean.

Jen: I support this so fully. And you can also make exceptions sometimes. So like, I have a minimum engagement fee, but when my alma mater calls me and asks me to talk to the graduating seniors in the musical theater program, I would pay them for that opportunity. I want to do it. It matters to me. It's meaningful to me. And some of the other engagements that I do help subsidize my ability to do that for them.

Pete: Right. Yes. Totally agree. Exceptions are totally okay, as long as they don't become the norm. And I mean, I have this example that's come up in the last few weeks, is, I was already going to be in Sydney for another piece of work, and someone asked if I could do this workshop on this particular day. And I said, "Well, I already happen to be there. So it's really not doing anything different, other than I'm going to run an extra session that I hadn't planned on running. So I'll do it for an amount, but it doesn't have to be my minimum engagement amount. It could be a little bit less, and I feel cool about that.

Jen: Yes. So I think the moral of the story here, Pete, is that dealing with the practicalities of the opportunities we are pursuing for ourselves, dealing with the practicalities of how we are going to reach our goals does not make us selfish, valueless, morally-empty people. We can be purpose-driven, vision-driven, values-driven people who also have their feet grounded in reality.

Pete: FOOC, yes. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.