The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 357 - Overappreciation

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: Well, it's happened again. I have been called out.

Jen: Oh.

Pete: I've been called out by a Seth Godin blog post.

Jen: Oh, been there.

Pete: Not for the first time, probably for the forty-second time. And I want to talk to you about it today. I want you to help make sense of this calling out that occurred to me. And what I ultimately want to talk to you about is the topic of the blog post, which was about being overappreciated, and the need for appreciation and validation.

Jen: Oh, overappreciated. Okay. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone talk about that until now. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Isn't that Seth's quirk? That he can create a topic that you're like, "Have I ever heard or seen anyone talk about such a take on such a topic?" So I'm going to include a link to the blog post in the Box O' Goodies, obviously, because it's worth reading. I'll paraphrase some of it. I'll share one of my favorite parts in it. But ultimately, what this is about and how I felt called out, and we can go into it, is around the need for appreciation and validation getting in our way.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: In the work that we put into the world, in the projects that we take on, in the things that we do, in the feedback that we give, our desire for and need for being validated and appreciated for the things that we do can and often does get in the way of us doing the work that we actually want to do. So maybe I'll just read you my favorite little passage, and we can take it from there.

Jen: Great.

Pete: Alright. So, this is like halfway through the blog post. It says, "There's another way forward. Our search for appreciation, in whatever form, is a kind of attachment. Attachment is our focus on something we crave but can't control. It robs us of our focus. And worse, creates a cycle of never enough. Appreciation can be more usefully seen as a byproduct of our practice. It's not the point. We do the work because we can, because we have the opportunity to contribute. If appreciation results, that's nice, but it's out of our control."

Jen: Hmm.

Pete: So around this point in the blog post, I was like, "Ooh. Ooh, ooh, ooh, I feel called out." Let me get your reaction.

Jen: Well, I'm interested in untangling this from another Seth Godin concept, which is the idea of making your things for someone specific. Who is it for? How do you...and I'm not asking this as a gotcha question, I literally don't know the answer. How do you untangle this idea that everything you make is for someone, and that you can release the need for them to validate it or appreciate it?

Pete: That is a phenomenal question. And maybe they're separate or related, i.e. maybe, just like a Jen Waldman-ism, that setting the goal is more important than achieving the goal. Maybe setting the who's it for is more important than "achieving" the who's it for, if that makes sense. So we get clear on who we're trying to make something for, so that we have a target to aim for when we're putting something into the world. But maybe that's it. Maybe the feedback we get is useful for us, but that's not the point of what we do it for.

Jen: Ooh, this is...okay. Thank you. The untangling has begun. When I was a kid, my mom used to spray a product called No More Tangles in my hair after a bath, and it was like magic. The comb would barely go through. And then, she'd spray No More Tangles. And then, it was like, ah, gliding through. And I feel like you just sprayed No More Tangles on my brain.

Pete: Also, by the way, if that's not the greatest name for a product, I don't know what is. It's obvious what it does.

Jen: And by the way, for the people who made that, I appreciate it.

Pete: Not that you need it. Not that you need it, but we still do appreciate it.

Jen: So the first thing that came to mind as I heard you saying this, Pete, was I recently did a workshop on how to build your professional network, and we talked about different intentions behind reaching out to new people. One of these intentions is to express gratitude. And my theory is that gratitude requires no reply, that with the intention of telling someone, "Your work is really meaningful to me, or it changed me, or it moved me, or helped shape who I am today, and I wanted you to know that," as soon as you hit send, that's it. It's done. And I find this to be a really good test of whether or not you're able to release the need for a specific outcome. Because if you hit send and you've completed your intention of, "I've expressed the gratitude," and then, you're craving like, "Notice me, notice me. Respond to me. Thank me for thanking you..."

Pete: Right, right, right, we're doing it for the wrong reason.

Jen: That's not gratitude in its purest form.

Pete: Right, yeah.

Jen: So, that's what came to mind.

Pete: Yeah. Oh, I like that. I guess that's related to what Seth's saying, is, it's the purity of it. You do the work for the sake of doing the work, not because you hope that it's going to be appreciated. The appreciation might be a nice side effect. The reply to your gratitude note might be a nice side effect. But that's not the reason you send it in the first place. In its purest form, it's about saying, "Hey, I see you, and this mattered to me. Thank you."

Jen: Yeah. Pete, have you...I don't know if this has reached across the pond. Have you been following the rise of the extraordinary Cole Escola?

Pete: I have no idea what you're talking about, so clearly not. Doesn't mean it didn't make it here, just means it didn't make it to Pete.

Jen: Okay. Cole Escola is an incredible artist who created the play, Oh Mary, for which they won the Tony Award for Best Actor this year. And I'm like way down the Cole Escola rabbit hole right now. And they are such an extraordinary, amazing, singular, iconic artist. And what has been really amazing watching them do all the post-Tony interviews is like, they genuinely did not do it for the appreciation. And it's almost like they're totally surprised that people are responding to it. Like, they just made what they wanted to make because they found value in it. Not saying it wasn't for the audience.

Pete: Right.

Jen: But it wasn't for the audience to say, "You're so amazing."

Pete: Right.

Jen: And so, to hear them talk about like, "I can't believe this happened to me," like genuine surprise, it's so refreshing.

Pete: Totally. I feel like it's more endearing too. I want to like this person more because that wasn't their intention.

Jen: Yes. I'm interested in the word "over", overappreciate. Talk me through what you think that means.

Pete: Well, I'll butcher the way Seth writes about it in his blog post. But my take from it was expecting or receiving more appreciation than perhaps you deserve, whatever that looks like. Like where that bar of "what I deserve" comes from, I don't know. But it's almost like, I don't know, "Last time we released an episode, we got all this great feedback. And so, all of a sudden, now I'm expecting more appreciation as a result. I'm expecting to be overappreciated, even though the amount of work I put in is perhaps the same or maybe even less. And then maybe, I don't know, maybe I get annoyed or I get disheartened if and when I don't get that." So the idea of being overappreciated, it almost feels like an expectation as opposed to a byproduct, if that makes sense.

Jen: So it seems like there is an appreciation scale: underappreciated, overappreciated, and then, the Goldilocks just right in the center.

Pete: I feel like most of us are familiar with the idea of feeling underappreciated. That, I feel like is a pretty common human phenomenon. I guess what he's writing about is that moment that, like we talked about, maybe you have had the taste of being lauded or given really positive feedback or overappreciated. And that becomes this new expectation, which then ends up meaning...you hear certain podcasters talk about certain other podcasts getting caught up in audience capture, and how the podcast has become this weird captured medium, that the host feels like they need to constantly talk about the thing that their audience responds to, or appreciates them for, or overappreciates them for. And it becomes this weird loop, where they're never quite satisfied or they end up down deep dark rabbit holes and end up in all sorts of crazy conspiracy-type podcasts, which we don't need to go into. But it's this idea of, I guess, being captured, controlled by the appreciation that you may get.

Jen: And I imagine that overappreciation might be a little bit like food that is not very nutritious. Like, it tastes really, really good, but it doesn't actually do for you what food is supposed to do.

Pete: Oh, that's a great metaphor. Yes. Yes, it's a type of sustenance that feels good in the moment, but it's not sustainable for you to continue to operate in a healthy and functional way. Like it's a type of feedback, just like fast food is a type of food, not necessarily the most nutritious type of feedback or nutritious type of food.

Jen: And I'm thinking, you know, someone like Seth, who is so prolific, one of the things that's so extraordinary about his body of work is how much of it there is. And it's always a new spark. And so, if you know what's going to get you overappreciated and you just keep repeating yourself, you do not end up with the body of work someone like Seth Godin has.

Pete: Right. It's such a good point. Like, some of his blog posts feel so random and disconnected from maybe the thing that I resonate with him when he talks about. That's because he's not trying to constantly appeal to the same people about the same things, and get overappreciated. He's like, "I feel like writing about this today. And so, that's what I'm going to write about. Like, I feel like exploring climate change. And so, I'm going to get hundreds of people from around the world together and we're going to write an almanac." Like, that's a literal project that he just decided to do because he felt like it.

Jen: Yes. My mind is still trying to wrap itself around the scope of that project and like how they actually got that across the finish line. Absolutely astonishing. Actually, let's put a link to that in the Box O' Goodies, because people need to look at that. It is wild. I feel like I need to call into this conversation one of our favorite books, Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen. It is probably the most recommended resource in the entire lifespan of the Box O' Goodies.

Pete: So good. Yes, so good. I reference it in my workshops almost weekly, I would say.

Jen: Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. Required reading. So good. And in it, they talk about three different types of feedback, and suggest that all are useful and all are necessary. The three types of feedback being evaluation, coaching, and appreciation. So it feels important to say that I don't think you or I are saying that it's not good to feel appreciated, and it's not good to know that someone sees your work and goes like, "That is good." I think what we are saying in response to Seth's blog post is if that's what you're chasing, you may be missing the point.

Pete: Yes, I think you said it perfectly. That book argues, and I would agree, giving appreciation to other people is super important too. Especially, you know, I think about this a lot in a corporate environment and a work environment, where it essentially says something along the lines of, "I see you, that thing you did, that project we just nailed, that presentation you gave. This is what I liked about it. This is what I thought you did well." Which is super important, to make people feel, again, appreciated, seen, heard, valued, like they belong. But I absolutely agree with you, which is, if we expect appreciation and do things specifically because we want appreciation, we might start to get into trouble. And I think this idea of expectation of appreciation is probably why I felt called out when I read this, is, I know for sure I get caught up. Maybe I need some No More Tangles. I can get myself tangled in the loop of expecting appreciation because of a workshop I delivered or a coaching that I just had or a keynote that I just gave, because I'm like, "Well, last time I ran this workshop for a different group of people, people said it was literally their favorite leadership development workshop they've ever been a part of. So, I should get some similar feedback." And then, maybe I don't. And I go, "Huh, was it even good? Did it even make a difference?" And I am getting caught up in expecting the appreciation because one time it happened. And this is why I think this blog post resonated with me, is my takeaway. What Seth's saying is, that's not the point. The workshop should stand and offer value regardless of what appreciation or overappreciation or lack of appreciation comes your way. Not to dismiss feedback and helpful prompts to make it better for the future, but to not do it and expect a certain positive result just because you did it.

Jen: I'm having a really funny movie play in my mind right now.

Pete: Great. I'll be the judge.

Jen: Okay. So, again, I don't know if this is a thing that happens in Australia. But in New York City, there is this thing that happens after a show called stage-dooring. And it didn't used to be called that, by the way. Stage-dooring, like a verb. So people go see the show and they want to meet people in the cast, so they gather outside the stage door. And then, cast members come out, and sign playbills and such. And twenty-whatever years ago when I was doing Broadway shows, it was not nearly the size of the crowd that it is now. Social media has let people know that this happens, so the crowds just keep getting bigger and bigger. But back in the day, some days you'd go out of the stage door and it would be like crickets. And some days you'd go out of the stage door and there would be people there. And I'm just laughing because when I was doing Wicked, oh my gosh, I had a black Sharpie and a silver Sharpie, you know, depending on what kinds of things people wanted signed. And I would come out of the stage door like ready to sign. "Oh, thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad you loved it." And then, sometimes I would come out of the stage door and like uncap my pen, and there would be no one there. Oops, a little embarrassed.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: But I still should have done the show. And I did the show again the next night, because it's ultimately not about like, "Are people going to be cheering for you at the stage door?"

Pete: For sure. That's a great example. And I feel tension in this whole thing because of what you talked about, around appreciation actually being a useful form of feedback. I think as the creative or as the person on stage, let's not kid ourselves, it's nice to feel appreciated. It's nice to sign autographs and go, "Oh my god, I'm famous for like two seconds." But it's to not get so caught up in that, that that's the only thing that we're doing things for. Stage-dooring is a thing, by the way, in Australia. And I'm just...I'm laughing. I'm remembering that time that you enabled me to go through the stage door and meet someone backstage at a big show in New York. And I had my own moment of feeling like a total celebrity because, you know, there's everyone crowding around the stage door and they're like, "Oh my god, is this person going to come out?" And I was able to like go through the red tape, talk to the security guy, and he was like, "Right this way, sir." And I like walked in backstage, and I was like, "Oh my god, I'm a celebrity."

Jen: People are like, "Who is that tall guy going backstage?"

Pete: Yeah. That's funny. That's so funny. Yeah.

Jen: Wow. Well, this is really good food for thought.

Pete: Yeah. The adjacent thing that came up for me (which was about ten minutes ago that I was going to mention, but we went along a different thread) that I just want to throw back in there is one of the reminders this gave to me is the idea of, in entrepreneurial ventures, if you look deep at ones that succeeded, very often, it's because the entrepreneur, the company founder, the person who created the project was trying to solve a problem that they themselves had. That, they didn't start this business because they wanted a bunch of appreciation for having created this product. Usually, they were like, "Oh man, this thing in my life is really annoying. I'm going to try and invent something to fix it." And shocker, often, those are the things that other people also struggle with. And then, they end up using their product or service and that helps them fix that problem too. So that appreciation was a byproduct, but not the intention for and the reason for the thing being successful in the first place.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.