The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 368 - Kicking Cans

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: In a recent episode of ours entitled "Momentum Mindset", I used the phrase, "Kick the can down the road." And we had a little side convo about that phrase in that moment, but I haven't stopped thinking about it. So today, I would like to put myself on the hook for a can that I've been kicking down the road, and I'd like for you to help me understand why I'm kicking it and how I can pick it up.

Pete: I mean, as someone who's very well adept at kicking cans down the road, I think we should stop kicking the can down the road about an episode on kicking the can down the road, and see if we can help ourselves stop kicking the can down the road. Wow. Did that make any sense? I don't know. But this is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Wow. I don't know what you drank this morning when you woke up, but give me some of that.

Pete: Can you tell I got to swim in the ocean this morning? The brain is either on fire or totally muddled. I have no idea. I'll let the listeners decide.

Jen: Okay, Pete. So in the phrase, "Kick the can down the road," we're talking about a can, like an actual can. Right? Like, a can that stores things, like a tin can or a soda can.

Pete: I think of an empty can of soft drink, i.e. an empty soda can. For some reason, that's the visual that comes to mind.

Jen: That's what I visualize as well. So, okay. But what I'm talking about today is our can...our can of The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Oh no. Now, I'm feeling called out already. What's going on here?

Jen: Because listeners, let me tell you what happens before we hit record each time. We say, "Let's check the can." So we go and we open up our can, which is a Google folder that has any recorded episodes that have not yet been released, because that lets us know if we're on track, in a good way. And since, Pete...let me look...May 19th, there has been an episode in the can. And every time we open the can, I look at that episode and I go, "I remember that being a good episode."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But I don't want to release it. But I don't delete it. I just keep kicking our can down the road. Why am I doing that? If I don't want to release it, I should delete it. But there it is. Week after week, during can check, there is an episode staring at me from May.

Pete: And I just bring it up every week.

Jen: Yes, you do.

Pete: Because I know that you're going to kick it again. I just want to see how far you're going to kick it this time. Okay, we can use this as an example. But I also am like, oh, yeah, I could think of examples of things that I am not saying no to, but not saying yes to.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And as a result, I guess in the turn of phrase we're using, I'll kick the can down the road about making the decision of, I don't know, whether to pick it up and put it in the bin or pick it up and finish the drink or whatever you do with that can.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So, let's use this as an example. I think the question you asked me is probably the question I'll ask you, which is, why do you kick this can down the road? Why aren't you shipping this episode into the wild? Why aren't you committing to deleting it? There's something that makes it compelling enough to say, "Oh, I think it's a good episode," and there's something that's scary enough to say, "I don't want to release it just yet."

Jen: I mean, I know what it is.

Pete: Okay, well, say it.

Jen: Okay. The episode...

Pete: Oh, we're really doing this. This is great.

Jen: The episode, listeners, is called "Musicals". So in this episode, I share a conversation I had with a client in a class. And in an effort to illustrate a point, I sing a couple lines of a song.

Pete: That's right.

Jen: Okay. So Pete, in the moment that we were recording it, the internal monologue in my mind said, "Don't sing too well. That would be obnoxious."

Pete: Yeah, yeah. "You want to be a little bit imperfect, otherwise it'll feel like it was scripted."

Jen: Yeah. Like, "You don't need to use your podcast to prove you've been on Broadway." And as my daughter always likes to tell me, as I'm singing around the house, "Mom, you're not on Broadway anymore."

Pete: Ouch.

Jen: But then, listening back to it, my vanity went in the other direction, and I was like, "I don't want people to think that's what I sound like. That's not how I sing." So anyway, because of this like five second vanity moment where I was worried about being too puffed up when I recorded, and then I don't feel puffed up enough when I listen back, we've not released the episode.

Pete: Yep, yep, yep.

Jen: Do you like how I said "we've" not released the episode? I'm going to implicate you in my guilt.

Pete: Yeah. It's the collective "we". I also love that you reminded me what this episode was even about. Because it's been so long, that I've kind of forgotten what we even talked about.

Jen: Pete, it was May.

Pete: I know. We're now in October, for those wondering. It's October, when we're recording this. So firstly, I wanted to say, "But Jen, it's okay. People have heard me sing on this podcast in silly little ways, and I'm like the world's worst singer." However, as I was thinking that's what I would say next, I then thought, "Yes, but you don't have a history where that was a core part of what you did all day, every day. So, no one expects you to be able to sing."

Jen: Correct.

Pete: Ah. So I just throw that out there, and then like scrap it immediately. But what I hear...you mentioned vanity. I translate that to a little bit of fear. I immediately go to one of our favorite episodes, I think, which is this idea of FOPO.

Jen: Oh, yeah.

Pete: Being, fear of people's opinions. And we had almost like a series where we started talking about fear onions. And how, one of the things we kind of...well, at least I'll speak for myself. One of the things I think about often is that the thing that stops us from doing something creative or taking a leadership or creative risk (which is what we spend a lot of time talking about) is often fear. And if you think about fear and you start to peel back the onion of like, "What is the thing I'm afraid of," I feel like so often the core of that is, "I'm afraid of what other people are going to think, what other people are going to say, how I'm going to be perceived, what that's going to mean for me." Now, part of me says, of course, because we are biologically hardwired for connection and to belong in community, so anything that threatens that is scary. So I feel like it's okay because you're up against biology, A. And also B., I think you know yourself and our listeners well enough to know that anyone who makes some bold judgment of you off the back of a three to five second clip of you singing is perhaps not who it's for, is not one of you, is not someone whose opinion is of value to you. What do you think?

Jen: Well, my mind is a little blown. First of all, by the phrase, "You're up against biology." Great title. Love it. Please write that book. But it's funny, I had definitely registered the FOPO piece, the fear of people's opinions. But the part I hadn't registered was our need to belong in community. That is so deeply embedded in my identity as being, first of all, part of the greater theater community, and second, the leader of my own community here at the studio. And literally, Pete, it did not cross my mind, since May, as I've kicked the "Musicals" can down the road. It never once occurred to me that it would have anything to do with my relationship to my community. I was thinking about it as my relationship to myself and like, "Oh, I don't want people to think that's what I think about singing." But it actually, when you peel the fear onion back another layer, it's, "...if people think I think that's good."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I mean, I'm not thinking this in my logical brain. But in my sensitive heart, I'm thinking, "Will I be ostracized by my community?" I mean, I think that is like the deep, underneath it all fear.

Pete: Oh, that's rich.

Jen: Whoa. Thank you for this therapy session. Please send me the bill.

Pete: Thank you for sharing. And let me hop on a like, me too, kind of version of this. Which is, there's been many episodes that we have recorded where I have shared a question that I was asked in a workshop, or said, "Here's how I'm thinking about running a workshop," or said something like, "This is what I think. What do you think?" Very general kind of statements, because there's too many to even bring to mind for now. And what I sometimes think, on reflection, is if someone listening to this is someone who is responsible for bringing in people like me into their organization to run learning and leadership development programs or executive coaching programs, would they hear that question and go, "Oh my god, he doesn't even know the answer to the question of, 'How do you think about creating the conditions for learning to happen, Jen,' or, 'How would you answer this question from a CEO, Jen,'" by me asking you the question, I sometimes have that same fear of, "Will people that listen to this ostracize or devalue the work and the thinking that I do because they go, 'Oh, he doesn't even know the answer to that question.'" So I feel that fear as well, also, by the way.

Jen: Yeah. Fascinating. I'm curious about other cans I might be kicking, and if those are also FOPO-related. And is FOBO a new fear? Fear of being outcast?

Pete: Yeah. Fear of being ostracized. Fear of being outcast. Maybe.

Jen: Fear of being odd.

Pete: Odd. Yeah. I'm thinking of a few examples in my head of not having a conversation that I know I should have had with, I don't know, like an ex-girlfriend, for example. I feel like everyone can relate to this, having an ex where you go, "Huh, maybe this relationship should have ended earlier than it did. And we kicked the can down the road." Jen's nodding enthusiastically. Everyone's like, "Oh, yeah. I can think of that person, yeah." And we, well, I kick the can down the road on those conversations because they feel uncomfortable and hard. And I'm like, what was that? Was that FOBO? Was it FOPO? It was just fear of what might happen if I dare to take a risk and have a scary conversation? Like, what is that? For me, it's definitely fear. In this moment, I'm trying to work out, what was it fear of? And maybe there's another example of like kicking the can down the road, of, I don't know, leaving a job that you feel like you know you need to leave. I'm just like calling out examples from my own life. Leaving a job, Pete, that you knew you needed to leave.

Jen: Chapters of Pete Shepherd's life.

Pete: Who knew this is where it was going to go? Why was it that you kicked the can down the road on leaving a certain job? Was it fear of the unknown? Fear of what people would say? I don't know exactly, other than I know for sure it was fear. And as Seth Godin would say: When in doubt, look for the fear.

Jen: Okay, this is making me think of a couple things.

Pete: Alright.

Jen: The first is the concept of a cut bait date, which as a Questioner in the Gretchen Rubin framework, is a critical piece for me that I employ in many circumstances...but sometimes fail to employ, like, for example, in this instance. And basically, a cut bait date is the day on which you are committed to making a decision with the information you currently have. Period. So I, depending on the circumstance, will put different parameters around something. But like, maybe we should say, or I should say, that if an episode has been languishing in the can for six weeks, on that six week mark, we have to make a decision about whether or not it gets deleted or it gets released.

Pete: Yeah, I like that. I feel like what you're alluding to is the story we can tell ourselves when we're kicking the can down the road, is, "I'll just kick it a little bit further. And then, by the time I get up to it, I'll have a whole lot of more information. And that information will help me make the decision."

Jen: Exactly.

Pete: And it rarely happens that we get more information, or we just continually think we need more and more and more information. And so, we never make a decision.

Jen: That's right. And I have to employ this with myself on the micro, where it's like...okay, for example, my daughter wanted me to buy her a shirt that she could bedazzle for the Renee Rapp concert. I went online. I just needed a white tank top. I knew that I would spend four hours researching fabric, if I did not set a five minute timer. And that was how much time I had to make the decision about which one to buy, because I will really go down the rabbit hole. So, maybe this is a concept I need to employ in situations like this.

Pete: Yeah. I've seen you do this well in many contexts, so maybe it's just borrowing that for your own context. The other thing that reminds me of is the fact that not making a decision is a decision. I think we can convince ourselves that kicking the can down the road is, like I said, useful because I can gather more information, and then I don't have to deal with making the decision itself, without realizing the opportunity cost. Like, it takes energy and time to line up the can, get the foot ready, and go, "Huh," and give it a big kick, versus if you picked it up, you threw it in the bin, you drank the rest of it, whatever you do with it in this metaphor, it's gone. The can is gone. It's now being dealt with. And so, you no longer have to deal with the energy of this perpetual movement of some sort of can. It's done. It's finished. It's dealt with.

Jen: Mmm. And then, you can take those mental resources and put them elsewhere.

Pete: Exactly.

Jen: Okay. One other thing comes up for me here, which is, I have clients with whom I work constantly on self-taping. Which, for those of you who are not actors, is when you set up your camera and you record your auditions. And because you can re-record them, a lot of my clients record them many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times. And what I try to do is help them create a more efficient process. And one of the ways we do that is by identifying, literally, what is the "good enough" bar? That, if something reaches this bar, even though it could always be better, this is actually good enough to send in. So maybe I need to create for myself, in terms of our episodes, what actually is the good enough bar? And does the "Musicals" episode reach it? Because if so, even though I might not feel perfect about it, it's still releasable.

Pete: I like that. So, I mean, you know the natural question that's coming, right? It's like, what's the date? And what's the good enough bar? When are you going to decide by?

Jen: I think I need to listen to the episode once more, because it's been a while.

Pete: Yep.

Jen: And it might not be as bad as I remember it...but it might be worse.

Pete: Alright, I'll allow that small kick.

Jen: So how about this, listeners? If it is going to be released, it will be released by the end of the month of October.

Pete: I'll take it. Listeners, we'll take that. Now, I'm fired up about this idea of addressing the cans that we're kicking down the road. And I'm going to...I want to make like a bold statement, that I don't even know if I believe yet.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: But let me just throw it out there as an idea to ponder. So I hear these maxims often, like, "The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your questions," or, "Your success in life will be determined by how many difficult conversations you're willing to have." And I often think, "Huh, that's really true," and nod my head. So, I'm just going to make one up.

Jen: Great.

Pete: Based on this conversation, I feel like success in life could be determined by how few cans you are kicking down the road.

Jen: Oooh. Well, that hit me where it hurts.

Pete: I don't even know if it's true. I just thought of it, and I wanted to throw it out there.

Jen: But honestly, Pete, I have some cans that I'm kicking down the road, that if I just picked them up and decided what to do with them, life would be so much better.

Pete: I mean, me too. This is why I said it. I'm calling myself out too. Me too. Me too.

Jen: Wow. Wow, wow. Okay. So listeners, I've made a commitment to you. You'll know by the end of this month, whether or not I put the can in the bin or if we're all going to drink it together.

Pete: Or we'll kick this can down the road too, and no one will ever know. It'll just be a conversation that we have.

Jen: But Pete, we can't do that. Because it is possible that the quality of your life is determined by how few cans you continue to kick down the road.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.