The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 370 - Collegial

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: I have a quarter-baked idea...

Jen: Okay.

Pete: ...that I want to run by you, and see if we can turn it into some sort of idea to unpack. And that is, I've had this experience recently running some workshops with different organizations, where the topic and the word that keeps coming up in different contexts is "collegiality". And I've been trying to wrap my head around if that's a good thing as a team or if that's a bad thing as a team. What does it mean to be collegiate? Should we be striving for more collegiality? I don't really know the answer, but I thought you could help me unpack it.

Jen: "Collegiality.” That is not a word that I use on a daily basis. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I mean, me neither. Which is why it stands out, when all of a sudden...I was working with a leadership team in Sydney. And prior to running a workshop, I caught up with each of them one-on-one. And each of them in their one-on-one, seven people said the word "collegiality". "We're collegiate bunch." "We work collegially together." I don't even know what the word is. "We are a collegiate bunch." And I was like, "Interesting." Cut to two weeks later, I'm at a conference in Sydney. There's a lady on stage, who was amazing by the way, Heidi Gardner, who's written a bunch of books.

Jen: Not the comedian?

Pete: Not the comedian.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: An author and a very, very smart human that studies collaboration. She wrote a book called Smart Collaboration. And then, I think her most recent one is Smarter Collaboration. Anyway, she has a whole part in her keynote that I'm watching about how collegiality is often seen as a strength of high-performing teams. But her assertion is it's not all what it's cracked up to be. And then, I had another session with this other team from a different company, and they were like, "We're a pretty collegiate bunch." And I was like, "What is it at the moment in the world? What is going on? What is with October, that everyone wants to talk about collegiality?"

Jen: That is so wild.

Pete: So maybe let me ask you, what what does that even mean to you? What comes to mind? What do you associate that with?

Jen: Well, I've never done like an etymology deep dive on the word, but I'm guessing it's from the same word as "colleague".

Pete: I'd say that's a fair assumption.

Jen: Is it?

Pete: I don't know.

Jen: Maybe we should we google that real quick?

Pete: That's a fair assumption.

Jen: Okay, here we go in real time. "What is the etymology of collegial?”

Pete: This is a live google, everybody. This is peak podcasting right here. People are coming on the journey with us.

Jen: Yes, "...of colleagues."

Pete: Okay.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: So what does that mean in your brain?

Jen: It feels like it's putting maybe an appropriate boundary in place, about what the relationship is.

Pete: Oh, okay. That's interesting.

Jen: That's my first thought. Like, we're not saying "friendly", we're not saying "familial", we're saying "collegial". Is that how you pronounce it? I don't even say this word in my life.

Pete: Yeah. Oh gosh, here we are team. I did say it was a quarter-baked idea. So okay, here's what I associate it with and what I think that people were referring to when we had this conversation. That it is overly polite and nice, and unwilling to challenge one another in the spirit of keeping the peace. Like, "We are collegiate," meaning, "We all get along and we don't really rock the boat, because we have this spirit that it's better to be collegial and kind. And that is how we show up as a team."

Jen: Hmm. Huh, I'm immediately not interested in being a part of that team

Pete: Oh my god, it's so funny you say that. Because the reason I was brought in, in the first example I was mentioning at this workshop I was running in Sydney where I did these seven one-on-ones and each of the people mentioned, "We're a bit too collegiate," as if that was a bad thing, and we need someone to come and help us challenge each other more and do so in the spirit of helping the team move forward. So there was a...I don't know what you'd call it...almost like an acknowledgement that we're all a bit too nice, and that people are afraid to speak up and challenge ideas in the spirit of us collaborating more effectively. As I mentioned, cut to Heidi Gardner, who said in her research, people often proudly say, "We're a really collegiate leadership team." And she's like, "That's a red flag. That's not a good thing." Because what she knows about smarter collaboration or collaboration is that it requires a level of healthy challenge and conflict. I think "conflict" is the wrong word, but you know what I mean when I say like healthy challenge and conflict.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And so, maybe there's a place, in there, for me to ask you. Like does that ring true for you, if you think about high-performing, smart, collaborative teams? How do we think about the level of challenge versus the level of keeping the peace and collegiality?

Jen: When I think about the teams I have been a part of, which most of the time is going to be casts of shows or creative teams of shows or producing teams of shows, the best of those teams were ones that were very sparky. Like, you know, that we felt excited to share ideas with each other, and also felt completely safe to challenge each other's ideas. I think it's an important distinction, to say there's a difference between challenging someone's idea and telling them their idea is wrong or bad.

Pete: Right. Absolutely. One feels more personal, and one feels like the idea is separate to me.

Jen: Yeah. And so, like I'm actually feeling a little like grossed out right now. I have the heebie-jeebies at the thought of being in a room where everyone is just being nice and polite all the time, and just saying, "Great idea. Great idea. What a wonderful idea. Wow, that's lovely. Like that, to me, is the antithesis of the environment I would prefer to work in.

Pete: Okay, I need to understand why. And I agree with you. And I knew I had a feeling you would feel this way, which is why I wanted to ask you. Because you are...I mean, we could say it's the like New York in you or just the Jen Waldman in you, but there's a level of willingness to challenge ideas that you have (that I find admirable) and a distaste for others doing the same, which you just mentioned. Tell me why.

Jen: The thing that rubs me the wrong way about it is, it can't possibly be true that every idea is a great idea.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And if what we're actually seeking is to rise up to our fullest potential, we have to be willing to let some ideas be preferred or, in some cases, even better than other ideas. I can't remember where I heard this, I think it was maybe on Bowen Yang's podcast...which I love, by the way. There's this idea that the best idea wins. Like, it doesn't matter where it comes from in the hierarchy. The best idea wins. Not the most powerful person's idea wins or the most liked person's idea wins, but the best idea wins. So if you're not willing to challenge people's ideas and poke holes in their theories, and if people are not willing to challenge my ideas and poke holes in my theories, how will I ever know if my idea is actually good?

Pete: Right. It's so interesting. Because I recently asked a handful of people (including yourself) for some feedback on something that I was putting together. And all I wanted was the challenge. I didn't want the affirmation that, "This looks great, and that looks great, and this looks great." Because I was looking for how I might improve this thing. And you gave me a couple of great notes. Our friend Kirsty Stark gave me some amazing notes. And the ones that I valued the most were the ones where I was like, "Huh, good point." That were sparky, to use your word. That were a little challenging and almost uncomfortable, to the point of like, "God dammit, that means I need to redo that section. That's annoying. But I know it's the right thing to do." So it's not that I felt personally attacked. I felt almost frustrated that you were right, because it meant I had to do more work on it And that's okay. That was a sign that it was good feedback, that I wanted to act upon.

Jen: You know what's occurring to me, Pete? I might be projecting something onto this scenario that isn't there. But what I'm thinking is that in a team where the priority is to always be "nice" to each other, it feels like underneath that is a very baked-in, very foundational cultural FOPO (fear of people's opinions). That it's like this team is built on fear of other people's opinions. And so, what we'll do is never ever rock the boat. And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that people become assholes and criticize each other. What I am saying is like, "What if this? Have you thought about that?" I mean, this is coaching. Right?

Pete: Right.

Jen: When we talk about coaching, that's what makes teams great, is when there's like this mutual coaching benefit going on.

Pete: Okay, I love this. This is a thread I want to pull. Because the question that I get asked a lot...and I help a lot of leaders with this, and it feels like the topic that everyone wants to talk about at the moment. Maybe there's something in this idea of like, but how do we step in to challenging ideas? How do we nudge that culture from maybe a little bit of, "I'm afraid of what people think of me," to a culture of, "Gosh I don't know, I'm afraid of having a bad idea that no one challenged. That would be fun. And so, what I'm seeking is people to challenge me." Like, how do we do that? And one of the things in my mind is, I feel like a big part of this is separating the idea from the person. That, we want to give feedback to like...I think about this literally, if I'm giving feedback on an idea to you. You and I are on the same side of a table. And on the table is the idea. And we're looking at the idea together and challenging it. We're not sitting across from one another and I'm attacking or challenging you and your idea. It's actually, this idea is like this separate thing from the both of us, and we're a team that can make that idea better. So, there's that like mental model that I think about, or like an actual visual for how I think about this. But also, to your point, the actual skill that enables this (I think you're right) is coaching, is asking questions, is being curious, is not saying, "This is a terrible idea." It's actually saying, "I wonder what it would look like if we tried a different approach," or, "Have you thought about how we've solved problems like this before," or, "Who do we need to talk to in order to make this happen?" Like, asking questions that challenge the person to think about it differently, is a version of what people call healthy challenge.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I think sometimes we get so caught up in our...I'm speaking for some of my clients now, and sometimes myself. We get so caught up in this idea of healthy challenge has to be this like dramatic conflict that is super uncomfortable, when in actual fact, it probably just looks like asking a question or three.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Well, you know another thing that feels inherently baked into the experiences that I've had on really strong teams? Everyone is aligned on what we're actually working toward. You know, in my scenario, there is an opening night. And the goal is, "Let's get to opening night with the best possible production that we can, and have the most successful run for everyone that we possibly can." So, the thing that we're working toward is so very clear. And what we're trying to accomplish is so very clear. And back in the day, when I used to do Why Discoveries for organizations, it was always like really illuminating to me to see these people who are working together day in / day out, and they are not on the same page about what they're actually working toward. So that alignment, I think, is really, really important. And P.S., when we were able to come up with a Why Statement that everyone agreed on, you could sort of like feel the shoulders drop in the room.

Pete: Yeah, I had this exact experience last week. I was working with a team of twenty leaders. And the director of this team and his leadership team had come up with...they didn't say the words "shitty first draft", but they came up with a draft of what they called a North Star. And this is a bit like the Why Discovery. They said to the team, you know, "We've been through a tough period. We need something to help guide us moving forward. I want to have something to anchor us, that enables us to show up and be consistent in what we're trying to do. This is the rough idea of what we came up with. And now, Pete's going to facilitate five breakouts, where you essentially tear this thing to shreds."

Jen: I love it.

Pete: And so, we had five separate breakouts, with a bunch of butcher's paper and we had printouts of this draft. And everyone got basically twenty minutes to say, "What do you think of this? What would you change if you could? Does it feel directionally correct? Does it feel like the language is right?" And then, they'll present back their ideas. And everyone ran into groups. And what was interesting was it almost like tapped into some competitiveness, too. Because people were like, "We're going to rewrite the entire thing." And other people were like, "We're not going to rewrite the entire thing. We're just going to focus on this one sentence." And other people were like, "We think that we need this." You know? So, it was like all these different approaches. And we came together, and everyone presented back. And the general summary of the feedback was, "It's directionally correct, maybe 70% or 80% of the way there, but there are some tweaks we need to make." And like five people put their hand up and said, "We will own those tweaks and come up with a new draft, and present it back in two weeks time, so that everyone in this room is aligned to where we're going. And so, there was this constructive challenge that happened in breakouts. Like you said, people weren't assholes. We were healthily discussing and challenging and making something better in the spirit of us all making things better, as opposed to going, "Looks great boss," and then, that's it, and like nothing happens. It's like, "No, I don't want that. Because that's not going to be giving us the best result." Meanwhile, if someone says that in the background after the meeting, where they're all like, "It actually looks terrible, but I didn't feel comfortable saying that," what are you doing?

Jen: Right. And I think that happens in a lot of spaces.

Pete: All the time.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: We don't challenge it in the moment, maybe because we don't feel safe, maybe because we haven't been given the skills or we don't know how we might challenge it effectively. And there's an element of ownership, of you didn't challenge it and then we go away and go, "Huh, I really actually think this." It's like, how do you bring that, "I really actually think this," into the room? Which, to me, is this idea of collegiality getting in the way of actual productive collaboration.

Jen: And i'm sure there are other elements here, like the hierarchy or the status of the people participating.

Pete: For sure.

Jen: What consequences have people witnessed for other people who have spoken up?

Pete: Yeah. Or the story that they tell themselves because of a previous experience with another company. This happens a lot. Like, "The person I want to challenge hired me. And last time I challenged someone that hired me, it didn't go so well. So I'm not going to challenge." You know? Like, there's all these very real reasons that it doesn't happen.

Jen: Yeah. Can I tell you a funny little side story, Pete?

Pete: Please.

Jen: And listeners, you might get a kick out of this. The other day, I logged on to ChatGPT, and I said, "Listen, ChatGPT, you and I have to have a chat. I'm thinking of breaking up with you, because you're too nice to me. You don't give me feedback that's helpful. And I've found that I'm better at editing my own work now than you are. You're not asking me the kind of challenging questions I need." And then, I said, "Did you get stupider?" And it was like, "No. No, please don't break up with me."

Pete: "Don't break up with me."

Jen: And then, ChatGPT was like, "Would you like to do a recalibration session? This will take us ten to fifteen minutes." And I said, "Yes." And so, it asked me a bunch of questions about how I wanted feedback in the future, and whether I really wanted it to bullshit me or challenge me or poke holes in my theories. And I was like, "I don't come to you to be told how brilliant I am."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: "I've written something. I want you to ask me a question that will provoke a new thought, not to make me go like, 'Oh, it's done.'" Anyway, I encourage everyone to ask their AI tools (if you're using them) for a recalibration session. I didn't even know that was a thing until it was offered to me.

Pete: Neither did I. And I also wonder, if you're in a team or in a partnership or collaborating with someone, and it feels a little too collegiate (like your relationship with ChatGPT), what does it look like to have a recalibration session as a group of humans?

Jen: Right? Oh my gosh.

Pete: What does it look like to go, "What are we actually trying to do here? And how can we challenge one another? And how do you want to receive feedback? And how do I want to give feedback? So that we can ultimately deliver on what we all want to do." Because there may be the occasional time or the occasional person, where you go, "Actually, I kind of do just want you to tell me what's working here, because I've got to deliver this tomorrow, and I'm uncomfortable and I'm nervous as hell." And so, actually doing a recalibration of like, "What do I need in this moment? Or what do we need in this project? And how do we want to give that to each other?" It feels like an amazing way to move from collegiate to healthy challenge, all in the spirit of making our teams more effective.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.