The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 392 - Breakfast

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: So I was running a workshop yesterday for a group of leaders in a company, and I did an activity where I asked people in groups of two to tell one another the story about what they had for breakfast. And in doing so, I learned a bunch of stuff. And I want to bounce it off you.

Jen: Wow. I am floored right now, and I'll share why in a moment.

Pete: Alright.

Jen: This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I mean, how could you be floored by, "What did you have for breakfast?" That makes no sense.

Jen: Because, Pete, I used to do a, "What did you have for breakfast," exercise when I was running the Speak Like a Leader workshop with Simon Sinek.

Pete: No way. I didn't know that. That's wild.

Jen: Yes. Isn't that crazy?

Pete: Wow. Well, you know, I've used this activity plenty of times in the last, I guess, handful of years. But the conversation that came out of yesterday's, there was an insight that I just hadn't pondered or I hadn't considered. And I want to share it with you. But also, we could maybe just talk about that activity and why it's a useful activity.

Jen: Yeah, I can't wait to hear in what context you're using this.

Pete: Likewise. Okay, context. So, this series of workshops I'm running with this group of leaders is about helping them be better partners across a business. "Partners", being the word they use. What, ultimately, we're trying to do is help them collaborate more effectively across a business. They work in a particular function. They support a bunch of other functions within a business. So, we want to be able to partner better. We want to be able to ask better questions. We want to be able to make sure we're co-creating solutions. We want to be having empathy and curiosity and humility, and all these things. And one of the things we want to be able to do, I was sharing with them, is use stories to build connection and drive the change you want to drive. So, this particular workshop had a focus on storytelling. Nothing groundbreaking, only ninety minutes. So it was kind of like, how can you just open a few doors and turn on a few lights to help people realize, A., everything around us has storytelling value. (That's a line that I've definitely borrowed from you.) But also, B., you already have the skill of storytelling in your pocket, in your toolkit. You just, A., need to remember, and B., need to practice it. And so, the reason I used this activity was, well, everyone had an experience at breakfast this morning. Everyone had a morning. So, everyone can answer this question. "Tell the story about what you had for breakfast this morning." There was a few other things I built around that, but that was the essence of it. "In five minutes, tell the other person what you had for breakfast this morning." And then, we came back and I said, "What did you notice," which we can get in to. That was the context. Does that seem similar to the context you would use this?

Jen: Well, indeed. Yes. Because it, to your point, is something you already know the answer to. So there's, first of all, very low pressure about getting the answer right. You're the only person who knows what you had for breakfast this morning. And describing your breakfast experience in great detail doesn't feel like answering the question, "Please get up in front of strangers and tell us about your hopes and dreams."

Pete: Right, right, right.

Jen: So there's like a low emotional stake attached, and it gives people a lot of permission to explore the concept of adding detail and color in order to humanize and inject emotion into something that might otherwise seem rather blah.

Pete: Benign. Yeah. Yes, yes. I agree. I think of it as...my favorite activities with workshops and breakouts are those activities that Trojan Horse like seven different things into them, without anyone realizing. Everyone's like, "What did I have for breakfast? What's that got to do with being a better partner?" And what you are sort of Trojan Horsing in, not to peek behind the curtain too much, is, "Oh, there's empathy built into this. Because now, I understand more about the person and their life and how they think about breakfast." Which is not actually the point of breakfast, but how they think about a whole bunch of other things. That there's a story behind why you choose what you choose to have for breakfast. And one of the things that often comes out is, "But I don't eat breakfast." And it's like, "Great. There's a story behind the fact that you don't eat breakfast." So you're building empathy and connection into this, which is one of the most important skills for partnering. You are helping people see that there are metaphors, analogies, stories in, like you said, the mundane, the seeming mundane, and a whole bunch of other Trojan Horses that exist within this.

Jen: You know, another element of this is on the listening end, hearing someone describing their breakfast to you in great detail, you can start to connect the dots to better understand the context of their life and who they are and what they care about. This is something we talk about a lot in script analysis with actors, that really great writing embeds all of this context in. It doesn't necessarily need to be expository. You know, it's one thing if I say, "So, I have a daughter. She's sixteen years old. She has challenges waking up in the morning, to get to school on time." But if I'm embedding those details in a story about breakfast, "I had my coffee alone. And finally, my daughter poked her head out of her room. And I was like, 'Really?'"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Right? So, you get to connect the dots and it doesn't feel like I'm lecturing you about the context.

Pete: Yes. It also provides a jumping off point for further conversation. Inevitably, when people come back from this breakout, they're like, "Yeah, we talked about breakfast for the first three minutes. And then, we ended up talking about, in your example, Jen's daughter and like what she does at school, and the fact that I also have a son and he's not quite as old as Jen's daughter. And so, what does that toddler phase look like? I went off on this entire conversational tangent that we would not have opened up, had we not started with that breakfast story."

Jen: Yeah. You know, Pete, at the top of every single class I teach, we do what we call "The Question of The Week".

Pete: Okay.

Jen: And these people all, at a certain point, know each other quite well. At the first class, no. But after being together for weeks, they know each other quite well. But we always do a Question of The Week. And it's always something so small, but we feel so connected to each other after. Like, for example, last week's question was, "Someone lays a charcuterie board in front of you. What is your approach?"

Pete: Oh my god. Great question.

Jen: And we learned so much about people.

Pete: That's a fun question. What is my approach? I'm going to say I'm probably going to cut a little bit of cheese straight up, and get a bit of cheese on a bit of cracker. That's how I start my charcuterie board, for those wondering.

Jen: Yeah. And I go for the perfect bite, with lots of layers and different flavors. See? We've learned something about each other.

Pete: That's The Question of The Week. Oh, dear. I love it. So, okay, here's my aha moment that happened the other day. Which, again, I've done this workshop a lot of times. I've asked some version of this question a lot of times. I've done some form of this breakout a bunch of times. And I'm always tickled by the learnings and the laughter and the smiles that come back after the breakout. And someone said something which echoes exactly what you said...which I don't know why, but I hadn't considered it. It's probably extremely obvious. But through the context of this workshop, what I was hoping they would realize is they have the ability to tell stories, to build connection with their partners, with the people they're supporting around the business. That if they have to communicate the project they're working on, might they communicate it through a story? Might they add an analogy or a metaphor? Obviously, it doesn't have to be what we had for breakfast. But what they hopefully realize is they can paint details of the project, but in the same way that you paint the details of what you had for breakfast, to help someone visualize what that actual project is. So, it was encouraging people to tell stories. And someone said, "Oh, my takeaway is I want to ask questions of my partners that promote them telling me stories." And I was like, "Damn, that's good." That, yes, it's useful to tell stories, obviously, to communicate more effectively with the people we're trying to connect with. But also, can you say to them something like, "Tell me the story about the last time you worked on a project that didn't work out," or, "Can you tell me the story of the last time you tried to partner with our part of the business?" And to get them to tell you a story, so that you have, to your point before, more context about this individual, so you can work better with them. That, I think I'd thought about it as almost one-directional. But what they were saying is, "Yeah. But you can come at this through the other direction too." And I just thought that was genius. That was my aha.

Jen: I love that so much. I mean, yes, stories are our most powerful communication and connection tool, period.

Pete: Right. And we don't always remember to use them, which is why I like the idea of someone else prompting you to tell a story. And especially if you ask a really approachable story, like, "What happened in your last meeting," for example, or something that everyone can answer, that helps you build context. Again, this Trojan Horse of, "Now, I understand more about this person, and what drives them, and motivates them, and what their priorities are. And now, I could partner better with them because I know more about them."

Jen: Do you remember an episode that we did where you referenced Priya Parker? I mean, I know you've referenced her quite a bit.

Pete: I was going to say, which one?

Jen: But one of the things I remember you saying is, "Don't open with logistics."

Pete: Yeah, that's a Priya Parker-ism for sure. I think it might actually be, "Don't start a funeral with logistics."

Jen: Oh, "Don't start a funeral with logistics." Yikes.

Pete: I think that's the provocative title of the chapter. I can double check, and put it in the Box O' Goodies.

Jen: It's a great title. But this feels like it leans into that idea. And it's just making me think...I do a lot of coaching with clients who are taking meetings with representation, potential agents and managers. And I'll say to them, "Before we meet, come up with things that you want to know." And when we sit down, they're like, "Well, I guess I want to know how many clients do they have, and how they work together, and what's your communication style." And I'm like, "I get it. But you could get those answers by saying something like, 'What's the most exciting thing that's happened in this office this year?'"

Pete: Yes. Yeah. "Tell me about your favorite client that you work with."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "What makes it so good?" "Oh, because they're proactive, and they do this, this, and this. And I love it when they come to the table with that." And it's like, "Cool, I could do that. I know how to do that."

Jen: Right. And to your point about the tangential ideas that are a product of storytelling, my friend Jasper Grant has this phrase that he uses that I love so much, "Leave room for serendipity." And I think storytelling does that. It leaves room for us to connect dots that we might not have otherwise connected.

Pete: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Here's to serendipity. I love that. So as I'm talking about this aha that I had, I'm realizing there was a good prompt that I've started experimenting with, from a book I read recently. And I hadn't quite connected this dot, but I am now. Ben Crowe is a very well-known Australian, now author and public speaker. And I think his work would be considered mindset coaching. He's worked with Andre Agassi, Ash Barty, Australian football players that you won't know the name of but I'll say anyway, Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, the old Richmond coach which is Damien Hardwick. He's done some work with Brenè Brown. He's a big deal, especially in the sport world and the mindset kind of space, helping athletes be better athletes, essentially. And also, leaders be better leaders, and humans be better humans. But anyway, in his book...which has just come out. I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies. He shared this little prompt that he does to groups to promote them to tell each other stories, and thus build connection and share vulnerably. And it's really good and really simple. And I started experimenting with it just last week. And actually, it's pretty cool what can happen. The prompt is the three H's and they stand for: Hero, Highlight, and Hardship. And the idea is you get each person to share in a small group or in front of everybody, if they're comfortable, "Who's your hero, or who's a hero you've had in your life? What's a hardship you've experienced in your life? And what's a highlight from your life?" And you can take that in whatever direction you want. You can go as deep and as vulnerable as you want. You could be surface level, if you're more comfortable. It doesn't really matter. But what inevitably happens is there's a story behind who your hero is. There's a story behind that hardship. And there's a story behind the highlight. And everyone in the room (and he references all these elite sporting teams) is like, all of a sudden, they're more connected. They become more effective as teams. They're more trusting. They're more willing to be themselves. And all of that creates the conditions for a better team or a better athlete. So, I just want to throw that out there because I found that recently. And I find it, again, a pretty approachable kind of question, that Trojan Horses a bunch of vulnerability and connection and empathy into it.

Jen: I know I invoked the name of Simon Sinek earlier in this conversation, but that three H's exercise reminds me of Simon's Why Discovery process, where you look at the peaks and valleys in your life. And then, you share the stories of the peaks and valleys with someone who is capturing the essence of what you're saying, identifying the patterns, and then reflecting them back to you, so that you can learn more about yourself. So we were talking before about how, you know, originally you were thinking of it one-way. Now, you're thinking of it two-way.

Pete: Maybe this is back into yourself again.

Jen: Yeah. It goes back one more time.

Pete: Yeah, it's a mirror. Yeah. I mean, I did that exercise with you so many years ago. I still remember where I was sitting, and some of the things I said, and I have a Google Doc with all that information as well. Because I guess I shared stories that became memorable. And also, you're an incredible question asker. Huh. Very cool.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: So, what do I do with this? I mean, the main takeaway / reminder for me was really just there's so much noise at the moment, especially in the work that I'm doing in the corporate world, around what skills matter, what skills are AI going to replace, how do we work more effectively. Most people are overwhelmed by the amount of work they need to do. There's a trend at the moment in corporate of people not wanting to strive to be senior leaders, because they look at senior leaders and go, "Stuff that. I don't want to be that stressed. I don't want to be that overwhelmed. I don't want to do that much work. I don't have that much subject matter expertise," a whole bunch of stories that exist as to why you might not do that. And I just, I come back to like these, again, real human skills that are the most important skills to make you better at your job. That the ability to ask questions that promote stories, the ability to tell stories, builds connection, builds psychological safety, creates the conditions for better work to happen, creates the conditions for you to actually enjoy working with the people you enjoy because you know more about them. That, gosh, we (and I'll include myself in this) can overcomplicate this shit sometimes. But maybe, just maybe, it comes back to telling and listening to one another's stories.

Jen: And maybe, just maybe, it all comes back to that age-old question, "What did you have for breakfast today?"

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.