The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 401 - Subtraction

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: Have you noticed how good we are at adding things to our plate?

Jen: Oh no, of course I haven't. Yes, hello, welcome to the story of my life.

Pete: I mean we, as you and I, but like the collective we, humans, gosh we're good at adding things to our plate, especially me. My god, I'm so good at adding things to my plate. And so, I wonder what it looks like for us to remove things from our plate. I want to talk to you about subtracting, as opposed to adding.

Jen: That was me subtracting a response. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Listener, I looked up from my notepad to be like, "Did Jen freeze? What just happened? Oh." So the context for this latest noodle is I was interviewed on a podcast and interviewed for a magazine article for the Australian HR Institute, both of which will be coming out soon. I'll put links to them in the Box O' Goodies, happy to share them. But there was a conversation that we had around, in general, the concept was: Are we making leadership too hard? Are we asking too much of our leaders? And there were all sorts of different parts to that conversation that we unpacked, both in the article and in the podcast itself. And one of the things I suggested people do, which is one of those things that...you know when you say something and they go, "Oh, actually, that's really interesting," and you kind of say, "Oh, haven't you thought about doing that before?" And then, I was kind of like, "Oh, maybe I need to think about doing that myself." It's an idea that I've spoken about with leaders before. I'm pretty sure you and I have spoken about it at some point. It's not groundbreaking. It's not unique. It's not my own. But I think it's worth noodling on, which is what I call a subtraction audit. And the context of the conversation was, maybe we're making leadership too hard because all we seem to be doing is adding more to leaders' plates. We're asking leaders to be able to manage people in a hybrid way. We're asking leaders to now wrap their head around managing agents. We're asking leaders to now be also experts at using AI. We're asking leaders to also be doing training. There's so many things that we ask leaders in companies to do. And I think this applies more broadly than just leaders and companies, but this was the context of the conversation. And in the context of supporting HR directors, which was this conversation, I was saying, I think a really unique way or interesting way for HR to be able to support leaders is to say, "What are you subtracting? What are you letting go of? What are you saying no to?"

Jen: Mmm. I love that.

Pete: And so, more broadly, I'm now noodling on, "What am I saying no to? What am I subtracting? Where might I start to play around with this idea of a subtraction audit?" I feel a little like this probably mirrors an episode we did once upon a time called Time Audit. But it was specific to a conversation I had just last week, so I wanted to bring it to you and do some noodling on it. What do you think?

Jen: I'm also having a memory of recording an episode called Less is More.

Pete: Oh yeah, that sounds familiar.

Jen: I'm pretty sure we did that once upon a time too. So yeah, this comes up for us on a fairly recurring basis. You know what would be interesting, Pete, is to go back and see if it's at this time of year. Is this when we always do this? That'd be funny.

Pete: Well, also to just to think about, A., Pete, you clearly don't have any new ideas.

Jen: What?

Pete: But also, B., have you subtracted anything or applied the lessons of less is more since we talked about them? I feel like this principle is one everyone can nod their head and agree to, like, "Oh god, yeah. I need to take some stuff off my plate. I definitely need to do a subtraction audit. I have got to do that." And maybe we do it. Maybe we do it initially. But then, after my subtraction audit, what starts to happen? People come to me with more opportunities. People come to me with, "Hey, you've got some room on that plate over there, Pete. Why don't you add some more things to that?" "Oh, I could have some more sweet potato on this plate." There's always things you could add back on. So I feel like there's a step, which is the audit. But then, maybe there's a follow-up step, how do you maintain space on your plate?

Jen: It's so interesting that this is coming around right now. Because this morning, Pete, I put something on my calendar for this coming Saturday, inspired by a concept that is related to this. I once heard...maybe it was Adam Grant, I can't remember who. Maybe when I say it, it'll spark a memory in you. I heard someone talking about an organization where they wiped everybody's calendars clean. All meetings were removed from the calendar. And in order to schedule a meeting, you had to add it back. You had to need it, in order to put a meeting back on the calendar. But just because there was a standing date already, it got wiped. And this Saturday, I have time on my calendar to cancel all of my streaming subscriptions and subscriptions that I have that are not directly related to my business. And I'm so curious, first of all, how much money I'm going to save. But two, if I'm going to add any of them back.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes. I love that idea. Defaulting to getting rid of everything, and then seeing what you need to add back. That's brilliant. I know that that is an example that someone used. I'm pretty sure Adam Grant used it, but I can't remember the name of the company. I just ran to my bookshelf and grabbed this book because I'm like, it feels like something Basecamp would have done. Basecamp is a company run by a guy called Jason Freed. And I think there's a couple of other co-founders as well. I'll have to fact check that and put it in the Box O' Goodies. But they've written a bunch of books based on their culture and their philosophy, which is like anti-hustle culture, anti-work all the time. I mean, literally the book in my hand is called, It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work. And it feels like something they would have done. I'm not sure if that's the example that they use, but in any case, I'm going to put a link to this book in the Box O' Goodies because it is so good at poking holes in this idea that you have to be constantly busy with packed schedules. I mean, literally on the front page...let me just read. It's got like "Eighty-hour weeks. Packed schedules. Super busy. Endless meetings. Overflowing inbox," and a big red cross through it. It's saying like, you don't have to live this way. So if nothing else, I've just reminded myself to re-read this book. So thank you, Jen.

Jen: Well, thank you for the recommendation because I've never heard of that book before. And now, I'm excited to read it. Of course, I just couldn't help myself. I googled it. It was Shopify and then Dropbox.

Pete: Ah, nice. So then, it's like, okay, well, how do you apply that to one's own personal life? Can you wipe all your subscriptions, to your point? Can you turn off all your direct debits, to see which of the businesses contact you to go, "You owe us money." And you go, "Huh, do I actually want your service anymore? I don't know. I guess I do." I'm not encouraging people to not pay the bills. But you know what I mean? So yes, that feels like an interesting way to apply the subtraction audit. I like the idea of going to an extreme rule, which is it's a default no, unless there's a compelling case for it to be a yes. I feel like at the moment, personally, I feel like I'm a default yes kind of guy. And then, I have to find a reason to say no. But I don't think I'm unique in that. So, I like the idea of flipping that.

Jen: Yeah. And I'll tell you, at least from my streaming subscriptions perspective, it really is just a convenience thing. It was a, "Oh, I could just sign up for this and never think about it again." And sometimes, that is true with meetings as well, where it's like, "Well, I know I have this standing meeting on Wednesdays at 11:30, so I never have to think about it." Even if it is sucking time out of my life that I don't actually need to be sucked out of my life.

Pete: Or sucking energy from my soul that I don't enjoy.

Jen: Or that.

Pete: How many of those meetings do we go to and we're like, "I mean, it would be so much better if I just didn't go to this. But I'm not comfortable with the friction of having to say no." So I guess that's a noodle that I just heard myself say out loud, that I want to just remind myself of. Why is it that it's easy to say yes and add things to my plate? I think it's because, if I'm Pete, it's more comfortable than (the story I tell myself is) letting someone down by having to say no or taking things off my plate, which then makes me feel like I'm not acting in service of the people I want to service, or whatever story that might be. To me, that feels like part of the reason why it's really hard.

Jen: Well, you know, Pete, I believe we did an episode called Time Blocking, once upon a time. And in terms of the resource of time, that has been a hugely successful method for me. So I'm offering that up to the listeners, that I put blocks of time on my calendar and I protect them with my life. But that's one resource. And now, I'm realizing that canceling all of my subscriptions is trying to do something similar for the financial resource. And I'm sure that there is an energy resource that could be more well protected, instead of adding, adding, adding, adding. Not in an effort to deplete energy, but that's just the consequence of always adding, adding, adding. So it's making me think about like the resource buckets, with a less is more perspective.

Pete: Hmm. And I feel like there's a like, how do we celebrate subtraction? How do you gamify or reward yourself for subtracting, rather than the guilt of saying no and making space for yourself? How do you celebrate it? How does it become something to run towards and do more of? This is something I'm pondering.

Jen: Yeah, that is interesting. You know, just going back to the time blocking example, because that's something that I've actually been successful at...as opposed to looking at all the areas where I have / am currently failing. I mean, the reward, the celebration, is having free time.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Like, getting to actually have a block of time on the calendar called Do Not Book. And then, you get to that time. That's literally what I call it.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: I get to the Do Not Book time and I go, "Oh, I've got three hours right now."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: "I could do anything I want." That's the celebration for me.

Pete: I like that. You know, you and I were talking about this prior to us recording. Basically, I've been sharing different ways we're experimenting and using AI tools like Claude Co-Work, Claude Design, Claude Code, and essentially trying to share ideas with one another so that we can start to leverage these tools to help us serve our clients better. And one of the things I was saying, or we were saying, is in the same way that social media is designed to get you to continue to use social media, it's dawning on me that these AI tools are very cleverly designed in a way to get you to continue to use these AI tools.

Jen: Oh, yes.

Pete: When they come up with a clever suggestion at the end of the response to your prompt, like, "Hey, would you like me to now go and do this? Would you like me to now go and do this?" It's alluring and tempting to go, "Yeah. Actually, I really want you to do that." And one thing I've been starting to think about (and you and I have talked about this) is, "Am I using this effectively, in a way that's helping me and my clients? Or am I actually adding things that aren't adding any value to my plate or to my client's plate?" Because it's easy to do so. Like, the friction of doing certain things is lessened. And so, there's more temptation to do more. And I'm sort of like worried that we are actually adding more to our plate, rather than using these technologies to give us more time back.

Jen: Yes. I might have said this to you offline last week, that I had this moment where I was working on something and I was trying to train Claude in what I was attempting to do, where I was like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. This is taking so long for it to learn this one skill. And when I do this skill, it literally takes me two minutes. Like, why am I spending a couple hours trying to teach this robot how to do it? Just take the two minutes and do it myself." Like, leave the AI skills for things that would actually make life easier and freer and offer more space.

Pete: Exactly. Or offer more value to the client, so that they then have more time back in their lives. Yeah.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Anyway, just summing up my noodle. Yeah. Okay, so how do we think about applying more subtraction? How do we subtract more? And then also, I guess there's a separate conversation too with once you've subtracted, how do you stay subtracted? And what do you do to protect that time? What do you do with that time? I guess that's another part of it.

Jen: Well, I think one of the things is what I mentioned earlier. When I go back and look at our transcripts, I'm going to see if this has been like an annual thing that happens around this time every year.

Pete: It's very possible.

Jen: Because one of the things you do is schedule it.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Schedule time for subtraction. I know I've mentioned this on this podcast before, but for people in the Gretchen Rubin Four Tendencies framework who are Upholders, like you, one of the things I tell them to add to their to-do list is an item called "Eliminate anything from this to-do list that doesn't actually have to be done". Because then, you get to check off the box. But it also helps you to use some subtraction.

Pete: Oh dear. I'm laughing because that is such a thing that I would do. Like, I'm out there. I'm chasing the A. I want to get all my to-do's done. I want to get the A from myself or from some theoretical teacher that I seem to think is following me around all the time, grading everything that I do. And so, I would write something like, "Oh, I know how to get the A. You get the A by subtracting things from your to-do list." To your point, I could subtract something, which means I get to get rid of that. But then, I get to cross off the thing that I just said that I scheduled.

Jen: A little life hack for you.

Pete: That's such a thing that I...that's a Pete Shepherd-ism, for sure. The other one that my wife and I often do, when we're like, you know, doing chores around the house. We'll be like, "Oh, I just cleaned the shower. Oh, it's not on our list, but I'm going to write it down and then cross it out because it feels really good."

Jen: That is so funny.

Pete: "Is it on the list?" "No." "Write it down. And then, I can cross it out. That'll make me feel good."

Jen: Oh my gosh. That is hilarious. You know, there is a...what do they call it? There's a bias or a tendency called Subtraction Aversion, which has been very well-documented in lots of studies. And I believe there's even a book about this. It might be called Subtraction, or it might be called Subtract. I'll look it up and drop it in the Box O' Goodies. But the thing that I remember from hearing about this tendency is that in one of the studies, they had people look at something that had been constructed out of Legos. And then, there were a lot of like loose Legos lying around this structure. And the researchers said, "Make this better." And overwhelmingly, people added to what was already there, rather than looking for a piece to take away. It just is so in our nature, probably because we like being contributors.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But I always remember the Legos when I think of Subtraction Aversion.

Pete: Yes, I think you're right. We like to feel like we're adding value. But I feel like this conversation is reminding me, and hopefully listeners, that subtracting is adding value.

Jen: Oh, say that again.

Pete: Subtracting is adding value. And in a world where all anyone is ever wanting to do is add value by adding something, be the person who adds value by subtracting something. Be the person who simplifies, takes things off the plate, helps other people do less for the benefit of them and you and the projects you're working on.

Jen: That's something I think you've always done very well, Pete, I've got to say. I think about your speaking work, and you do it most of the time without any slides. You do your proposals without four hundred pages of gibberish. I mean, you really are good at simplifying. (I'm guessing I need to add...in certain areas.)

Pete: I appreciate the compliment. And I think you're right...in certain areas. I often hear myself say something to a client or in a workshop like, "My brain has a tendency to oversimplify everything. With that in mind, here's what I heard, or here's what I suggest, or here's what I'm thinking." I actually use it as a caveat, because I know sometimes things are more complicated than maybe my brain interprets them as. But I appreciate that compliment, and I'm definitely wondering why I can't do it in other areas of my life. So, that's something for me to go noodle on. Stop overcomplicating things, Pete. Hmm.

Jen: Well, Pete, I've got to jump off this call because I now need to go do the dishes and get some things off my plate.

Pete: I also feel compelled to just acknowledge that I feel like I've added something to people's plate by saying, "You should do a subtraction audit." It's like, people are going, "Oh, great. Another thing for me to do, Pete. Another audit for me to implement." Hopefully, if you do this one, it will mean there's less to do in the future.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.