The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 403 - Lessons from Jen’s Coaching Retreat

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: I'm extremely energized, as I am just coming off of my three-day retreat for coaches and teachers. It was so great. It was amazing.

Pete: Listeners, Jen is bouncing off the walls. I recall this was something that happened maybe twelve months ago.

Jen: Yes, I do it annually. This is the third annual, and it happens the weekend after Memorial Day, here in the States. And people do fly in from all over the country to participate. It's a glorious three days. And I thought today I would share with you some of the takeaways from the weekend. There were so many, but I thought I'd pick five.

Pete: Ooh. Five. Alright. I'm happy with five. I also want to hear the other thirty-five that I'm sure you had, but let's start with five. I can be patient. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Lessons from a coaching retreat.

Pete: Oh, I'm excited. I guess maybe I'm jumping the gun. I'm getting excited now.

Jen: I'm excited.

Pete: Are these lessons you learned, lessons the people in the room learned, or a combination of both?

Jen: These are lessons that they gleaned from the things that I was teaching. And in some cases, I was very explicit, saying, "This is the lesson." And in many cases, this was them articulating what they were witnessing in the coaching work. And I should also say that these participants were people who work with artists, mostly performing artists, although one person was a coach / director for people who narrate their own memoirs for audiobooks.

Pete: Oh my god. I'd love to learn from that person.

Jen: Yeah. Very cool.

Pete: Okay. So, five lessons from Jen's coaching retreat. Hit me. What have you got?

Jen: Okay. I'm going to say them all up front, maybe. And then, we'll unpack them one by one.

Pete: That sounds good.

Jen: Okay. Number One (in no particular order): Know what hat you are wearing. Number Two: Know what hat they are wearing. Number Three: Say less. Number Four: Sort your thoughts into objective and subjective, before you say them out loud. And Number Five: Doing is so much more powerful than talking about doing.

Pete: Oh my god. I feel like each of these is an episode. But let's start with…I mean, I guess we’ll just work sequentially. Tell me more about knowing what hat you're wearing.

Jen: Well, I've run this three years in a row now, and I always include this on the first day. And even the people who have been there for three years like the reminder.

Pete: So, you do have people…that was one of my questions, actually. You do have people that have come to every single one of these?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That's awesome, by the way. That's just so cool.

Jen: And I think they're going to come back again, too. It's such a great time.

Pete: Shout out to these people with a growth mindset. Like what an inspiring growth mindset, to go, "So I have always got something to learn, even from the same person about the same topic. I'm going to keep coming back." I love it.

Jen: Well, and Pete, the truth is, as a coach, when do you ever get to see other coaches coach? Very rare.

Pete: It's an excellent point.

Jen: Yes. Because I do a lot of the coaching on the first day. But then, the next two days, everybody contributes their ideas. So you get to hear all these different perspectives on the same work that we all just witnessed, and we all saw something different, which is so cool. It's so cool.

Pete: Oh, that is cool. Oh my god. I feel like I need to fly over for the next one.

Jen: Oh my gosh. Please do. I would love to have you.

Pete: Can you imagine?

Jen: Yeah, I can.

Pete: I always need an excuse to come visit. So, let's make it happen.

Jen: Alright. So Number One: Know what hat you're wearing. So like I said, this is something I include every year. And it's always a good reminder that you, in your clients' lives, as a coach or a teacher, actually wear so many hats. And it's important for you to be intentional with what hat you're wearing in service of the person you're working with. So some of the hats we spoke of were the teacher hat, the coach hat, the mentor hat, the facilitator hat. And then, there is a hat that I am not interested in wearing. So when someone tries to put it on me, I actively take it off. And that is the therapist hat.

Pete: Ah, nice. I love that. The hats we wear are just as important as the hats we don't wear, is how I'm interpreting that. That's good.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: I also feel like this is true of leaders in companies. Which is just, you know, relevant because that's where I spend most of my time, helping leaders in companies. It's like even as a leader in a company, you're going to have to wear a bunch of hats. And to get clear on which hat you're wearing will enable you to better help and lead the team that you're leading. Like, do you need to wear the hat that is giving hard feedback, versus the hat that is coaching someone about something you think they can solve themselves, versus having to be a manager of a process to get some stuff done, versus having to, I don't know, pitch for a new job or a new project. Like, there's so many different hats that one wears as a leader / member of a company, employee of a company. So, I love it.

Jen: Yeah. And, you know, when in doubt, wear the coaching hat. And for me, that means my role in that moment is to help the person I'm working with achieve their maximum potential, by using the tools they already have and the talents they already have. And if there's something missing that they don't have yet, then I might go into the teacher hat mode and help build a new skill. But when in doubt, coach.

Pete: I love that. I literally say something like, "When in doubt, ABC." And “ABC” stands for “always be curious”. You could change the “C” to “coach”. “Always be a coach.” Same thing. It’s a posture of, "You tell me how you think you might solve this problem, because I have a pretty good feeling you already know how to solve this problem." I love it. That’s the attitude of, "I don't need to be the person that solves everything for you, although I can help you if you want me to. But first, I want to know what you think." So, default to the coach hat. That feels very Jen Waldman.

Jen: And I think we have an episode on this from the past, so I will dig it up and drop it in the Box O' Goodies, on the difference between coaching and teaching.

Pete: I feel like the song just came into my head. I don't know if we recorded the song in the episode. I think it was on our Instagram at one point. Was it public, or was that just you and I?

Jen: I don't know. Let's see if we both remember it.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: One, two, three.

Pete & Jen: “Coaching and teaching. Coaching and teaching. Coaching and teaching.”

Pete: I mean, a pretty good banger, I must say. Pretty complicated song, that one.

Jen: “Coaching and teaching.”

Pete: Oh, god. Alright. What about Number Two: Know what hat they're wearing?

Jen: Okay. So this came up because I had brought a bunch of actors in to work with the coaches. And in a couple cases, the actors brought in material that was about to go into a callback. And I don't think that had ever come up in one of our previous retreats. So when someone said, you know, "I'm going in and actually presenting this for people tomorrow," that sort of changed the way I was going to approach the session. Because I only have twenty-four hours for them to be able to get the note, absorb the note, take the note. So even though there may be more growth that they could experience, that wasn't the point of the session. And so, we started getting very specific about making sure we, the coaches, understood what the client was really hoping to get out of the session. And so, one of the coaches said, "Oh, yeah, we need to know what hat they're wearing. Are they wearing the student hat? Are they wearing the professional artist hat? Are they wearing the person who has a callback in twenty-four hours hat?” It was a really useful way to think about this. Not only are you wearing a hat that you're switching from time to time, they're wearing a hat they're switching from time to time. And part of your job is to understand where they're coming from.

Pete: Oh, yeah, this is great. I would translate that for myself as to meet them where they're at.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And I could think about two examples immediately that come to mind, one from you and one from this amazing speaking coach I worked with, Sarah Glancy, who I believe you've also worked with.

Jen: Yes, she is amazing. I was literally messaging her right before we jumped on this call.

Pete: Oh my god. Shout out, Sarah. And actually, both were about a similar thing. So I remember sending you a message about a keynote a long time ago, which was, "Can you, you know, listen to this keynote if you get a minute and give me some feedback?" And your first clarifying question back to me was, "Well, do you want like in the weeds feedback or do you want, you know, 30,000 foot feedback? Because I'm pretty sure it's in a couple of days, isn't it? And you're probably not going to redo the whole thing, given it's a couple of days away." And I was like, "Good point. I think I want the 30,000 foot what's working, what's not. Great job, Pete. Keep going."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And so, that changed the feedback you gave me. And there was a very similar conversation I had with Sarah a number of years later, where I was working on a keynote with her and crafting it. And she was like…I can't remember the exact question, but it was ultimately, "You know, this talk you need to give is in a week's time. So, you tell me. Do you want me to be specific about feedback about your introduction or the conclusion or the whole thing, or like what would be most useful?" And at the time, I don't know if I even knew. And so, it forces you to go, "Huh, what hat am I wearing? What feedback do I want? That's great to now have to communicate to you, so you can help me help myself in a way.” Yeah.

Jen: Yes. And for the listeners who are just like, "Wait, Jen and Pete have a speaking coach?” The answer is yes. Because we believe in having coaches. And we will drop Sarah's information in the Box O' Goodies. But also, listeners, Sarah is an unbelievably excellent actor and singer. She does it all.

Pete: She does. What a legend. Alright. So, that feels good. So, we've got Number One: Know what hat you're wearing. Number Two: Know what hat they're wearing. A lot of hat talk. I like a good metaphor. So, I'm down for this. Number Three feels like what I'm going to enjoy: Say less.

Jen: Okay. In order to explain this, I have to say more. But the point is to say less.

Pete: I thought we were just going to sit in silence and move on to Number Four now.

Jen: Yeah. Well, one of the patterns that I started noticing in the coaches is that they would offer a note or give an idea. And rather than letting it land, they would re-explain it a different way, and then re-explain it a different way, and add more information, and add more information. So by the time they were done explaining it, the person they were talking to had kind of forgotten what the point was in the first place. So, we really were practicing being as concise as possible.

Pete: Yeah. I'm sure I've told this story before on the podcast, but I'll retell it very quickly. There was a day I was working in a cafe and pretending like it was a co-working space. You know, that sort of cafe where you order one espresso and you sit there for six hours. And there was a bunch of other people doing the same thing. And these two people sat next to me on like a communal table. And what unfolded was essentially a manager bringing an employee to the cafe to give them some feedback. And, I mean, firstly, like public place feedback, not sure about the approach. And then, secondly, I checked the time on my laptop just because I was curious. And it was like, you know, I don't know, it was 1:30 p.m. And by the time the manager had stopped talking, it was like 1:57 p.m.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: And they talked for twenty-seven minutes straight. And so, the person on the other side of the feedback was so overwhelmed. I mean, they actually got emotional because they didn't even know how to respond to twenty-seven minutes of full frontal feedback without any opportunity to clarify, to ask questions or anything. And I don't necessarily blame the manager because I feel like this is very common, where I go, "I bet you were really nervous about having to have that conversation. And I bet how you compensated for your nerves was to just keep talking." Because sometimes, when people get nervous, they think they need to keep explaining. And we keep explaining, and we say the same thing over and over again, and we just keep going, "Oh, I need another example. I need another example. I need another example, so that I don't come across as rude or so that I feel like I've been solid in the examples.” So yeah, I just feel like this is a very, very common trait, to over-talk. I feel like I'm doing it now. And it's remarkably simple to understand, and hard to do. And that is to just say less.

Jen: Indeed.

Pete: I'm trying to read my own writing about Number Four. I've got, “Sort thoughts into subj and obj.”

Jen: That's subjective and objective.

Pete: Right, right, right. I didn't have time to write the full word. I was scribbling.

Jen: Well, the reason this came up is…this is very specific to my industry, but I think probably crosses over.

Pete: You always say that. And we're always like, "Actually, no, it translates."

Jen: Okay, Pete, I believe it is my responsibility as a coach to singers that when I know someone is singing the wrong note, the wrong rhythm, or the wrong word, that I tell them. Because there's nothing subjective or emotional about that. If it's straight quarter notes and you're singing something that is not straight quarter notes, you're singing it wrong. It's quarter notes on the page, and you're singing something else. Or if the lyric is, "Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love ya tomorrow," and you say, "Tomorrow, tomorrow, I like ya tomorrow," I have to tell you that it's “love” because it is objectively true.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And if I can give you objective feedback in a way that does not try to protect your emotions, you are less likely to take it as an emotionally heavy note. Now, I try to steer clear of any emotional notes. I try to leave things like "I feel" out of the way I give notes. But some people like to include, like, “That made me feel a certain way.” Fine, to each their own. But if the note is flat, the note is flat. And it has nothing to do with whether or not you're a good or worthy person. It's just the note is flat. Tune it up. So, anyway, it became very helpful for people to think about sorting the objective stuff, so they could stop dancing around it.

Pete: Oh, that feels good. I mean, I feel a little bit jealous because there's a part of the work that you do that is...there is a bit of a right and wrong. You know? There's the right lyrics to a song versus the wrong lyrics to a song. And in the world I play in, you know, leadership, it's a little less objective. It can be a little less objective. Although, if I'm, you know, a leader in finance and we're reporting back on some numbers, I guess there's a right number and a wrong number, depending on the sales we had or, you know, the thing we're trying to communicate. Okay. So, I like this idea of delivering objective facts objectively and clearly. I also feel like what this does is force people to accept that so many of the things they're thinking are objective are actually subjective. Like, I think this is maybe more relevant in the corporate world that I spend time in (although you can tell me if I'm wrong), where we think our reflections, our observations, our feedback, our preferences, our opinions are objective. But actually, there's a very good chance they're just subjective.

Jen: Now, Pete, sometimes after you sort, you can combo package things. For example, if you are coaching a client in how to become a more effective communicator, and when this client is speaking to you, they're avoiding eye contact, it is objectively true that you did not make eye contact with me. That is objectively true. What's subjectively true is that it made me feel like you weren't listening to me.

Pete: The story I told myself about that, yeah.

Jen: Right. And, again, I think that separating these things actually makes it easier to deal with the things that do have emotion around them. Like, “When you were in that meeting, you spoke 80% of the time and the rest of the group spoke 20% of the time. That's just fact. “How it made me feel was that my opinion wasn't welcome here.” So, anyway, I just found it really useful to do that with these coaches.

Pete: Love it. So good. I could say so much more about that, but I'm going to embrace Number Three and just say less, because I think the point landed. So, Number Five, doing is better than talking about doing. That's what I wrote down. Is that right? Did I catch it?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Doing is better than talking about doing.

Jen: Yes. A lot of times, what I noticed was that rather than giving a more concise, say less kind of prompt that would give the client the opportunity to try the thing, we talked a lot about what doing the thing might be like. And the aha moments for the doer happen in the doing.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So the sooner we can get to the doing, the better. Now, that doesn't mean leave out important and necessary context and instructions. But what it does mean is use the fewest number of words possible to get there, so that they can get to the work more quickly.

Pete: Yeah. And make space for the work in the session itself.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Rather than, you know, I don't know, the old school (I'm sure there's still lecturers that do this at universities), where it's like you sit there and listen to a sixty-minute exercise or lecture, and you leave. And it's kind of like, "I was disseminated a bunch of information, but do I get to put it into action? Where's the doing part of this, that is going to help me learn it?" So, god, I totally agree with you. I mean, I've run so many workshops on helping people be more effective coaches or ask better coach-like questions as leaders in companies. And I'm like, “I could spend thirty minutes intellectualizing coaching. But actually, I think what's better is to say, ‘Get into a small group and just ask each other questions for five minutes, and let's see what we learn.’”

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: “Coach each other, and let's see what we learn.” And yeah, there's some technique things we can improve and we can get better at, and like the way we frame questions matters. But really, the practice is asking questions and being quiet. And there's so much learning in just doing that.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. I love that. I have to tell you, Pete, after spending three days with these coaches, and honestly, with the actors, too, who were a part of this, I felt so hopeful about the future. There was just something so rewarding about watching people work on the very human craft of connection and to take big risks and to give themselves permission to make mistakes. I left feeling like, "Wow, if these are the coaches and teachers who are going to be handling people moving forward, we're in really good hands."

Pete: Well, thank you to the people that showed up and gave Jen that experience and one another that experience. And then, providing me all these learnings too. And now, our listeners. The five lessons from Jen's coaching retreat, as useful as ever. And I'll see you next year, team.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.