The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 407 - Packing

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I am getting ready to leave New York City for the summer, as I do every summer. And it's really gotten me thinking about something, because this year I'm leaving the city in a different way than I have in years past. So, Pete, I need to talk to you about something very, very serious. And that is packing.

Pete: Oh, my God. Packing. I mean, you jest, but we do love an unpack, so maybe it's worth discussing a pack.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: This is The Long and The Short of It.

Jen: Well, Pete, I was at first reluctant to even bring up packing as a possible topic for this show. But then I thought back to some of the other things that we've done over the last 400 episodes, where we were like, "There's no way this is going to be an episode." And then it was. So I'm taking a risk.

Pete: Yeah, and then we've had ideas, when we're like, "This is definitely an episode." And it's still in the cutting room floor. We couldn't quite get there. So you just never know.

Jen: You never know. So, Pete, it has been at least thirteen years, maybe longer, since I've spent a summer in New York City.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: Maybe fourteen years. And every time I have left New York for the summer, I have done so in a motor vehicle, in a car.

Pete: A vehicle.

Jen: That is packed to bursting. And we've even got an attachment for the roof where we can put extra things. Well, this year, my daughter and I are traveling separate from my husband. He has to be in New York. So we're flying where we're going, which means everything we're packing has to fit in a suitcase. And it is really making me evaluate, first of all, that I'm an overpacker, which I'm sure doesn't surprise you, Pete.

Pete: I'm not surprised, but I feel like I can relate.

Jen: And also, like, why do I bring so much stuff with me? The 80-20 rule definitely applies to my packing. I bring so much stuff, and then I use 20% of it.

Pete: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen: So just wanted to get your ideas, your thoughts. You are what I would call a minimalist. And I'm more of a maximalist. So I'd really love to hear your insights on how you think about packing.

Pete: I mean, you say that, but Trace and I had this conversation at Easter this year because we went on a little holiday down the coast in a vehicle we drove. And the car, of which we have a big SUV, was like I could hardly see out of the car when I was trying to look through the rear vision mirror because we'd stuffed it full of so much stuff. And I said to Trace, last Easter, we went to Melbourne to visit some friends on an airplane, and we each took one little suitcase. As in, me and her and Ollie had a tiny suitcase. And yet, we're going away for less time to a destination that's closer to home in a car. And we have packed so much stuff. Like, what is that?

Jen: What is that?

Pete: She said, "Oh, it's just because it's easy. Just because you can, you do." And I thought, yeah, that's probably true. Because you're right. If I'm getting on an airplane, or if I'm thinking about packing, I am pretty good at keeping things minimal. I would say not as good as my parents. So, my mum and dad, as a sidebar, are in Europe for eight weeks, and they each took a carry-on only, one bag each.

Jen: No way.

Pete: I know, right?

Jen: What?

Pete: And I said to mum, "You know you're allowed to check luggage in." And she said, "Your father likes the challenge," which is just so my dad. So, maybe you know where I get some of these quirks from.

Jen: That is amazing. Some people enjoy the challenge of packing down. Some people are like, "No, I need everything, because I don't know what I'm going to need when I'm there." Does it say something about our personality? Is there a lesson to be learned?

Pete: I mean, maybe.

Jen: I feel like there's got to be some sort of lesson to be learned. Like, right now, I'm sitting at my dining room table speaking to you on Zoom. Behind my computer is the stack of books my daughter thinks she's bringing with us. And I'm going to count them real quick. These are going in a suitcase, mind you. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. There are twenty-two books in this pile.

Pete: Oh, my God. Twenty-two books. Oh, that's hilarious.

Jen: And I don't even think that's all of the books she wants to bring. So, you know, she's going to have to make some decisions because we can't bring twenty-two books.

Pete: Okay, you said the D word, decisions. This is where my brain first goes.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: Decisions are really hard.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And so, we consciously or subconsciously are very good at avoiding having to make them when we have that option. So, if I have the option of not making a hard decision about which two books I want to take because I'm taking a car, no worries. I can kick that decision down the road and just take twenty-two. And then the decision of which book I read will be made the day I'm on the holiday and I've actually got my twenty-two books. And maybe on the drive home, I'll laugh about how I brought twenty-two books and I only needed one. But I didn't have to make the hard decision at the start because I didn't want to, because I wasn't comfortable with it, because decisions are hard. Decision-making is hard.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Like, I guess another way of asking that back to you is, do you find it easier to pack for the car trip or easier to pack for the airplane trip? Like, which one requires more mental load?

Jen: Well, staying on the topic of books, I'm laughing at my daughter, but the truth is I probably brought thirty books last year. But I thought in advance of the books, because they're so heavy, and I identified that there are four books I actually need to bring with me, and the rest I can check out of the library there, or I can swap on my several trips back to the city.

Pete: Okay, can I just...just on the book thing, I have an intervention for you, an idea, just a noodle. Maybe you guys need a Kindle each.

Jen: No, I won't do it.

Pete: Come on. Trace and I each have a Kindle for this exact reason, for travel, because you can have as many books as you want. You can add to the book count. Yes, it's not as satisfying reading a Kindle book as it is a real physical book, but it's so small. It saves so much room.

Jen: It is so small. I actually do own more than one Kindle, but it just sits in a closet, unused.

Pete: It's not sparking joy.

Jen: Okay. Alright. It's not sparking the joy for me and for my daughter. Well, first of all, she loves to read, but she loves the aesthetic of being surrounded by books. She likes the feeling of being able to look at her books and be like, "My friends."

Pete: I get that. I mean, look at the room. I feel like it's not surprising given the house she grew up in. I'm looking at your house, right? There's books everywhere behind you.

Jen: Everywhere. So to answer your question, though, I found it easier for this trip to pack four books.

Pete: Oh, really?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: That's not what I thought you were going to say. How interesting.

Jen: Because when I know I can bring all of my books, I actually stress about leaving certain books behind because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, well, I packed thirty. Can't I just pack thirty-one? What if I need that book number thirty-one?" And in this case, it has made me do something I like to do, which is think ahead about what some of my plans are and then narrow down my choices. So for me, it's actually been easier to pack four books. What is not easy is packing less clothing, specifically shoes.

Pete: I thought I had a point, but maybe your shoe point just contradicts this. But the first idea I thought of was maybe it's because decisions are hard. I still think decisions are hard or prioritization is hard. I still think that is very true. It's a different thread. But the other one I just heard is that constraints make the decision easier. Constraints make the process easier. So the book that we've referenced a squillion times on this podcast is A Beautiful Constraint, which is this incredible book that makes the point that you can't create anything or build a strategy or make decisions without constraints. That constraints are something to be leveraged. Constraints are something to be deliberately amplified. They're designed to be used to help us get stuff done like packing. And what I just heard you say is that the constraint of only having a certain amount of literal space enables you to make an easier decision when it comes to prioritizing your books. So then the other book I would just call out, which is top of mind for me at the moment because Ryan Holiday is coming to Australia and I just booked tickets. It's an incredible book called Obstacle is the Way. I think it was probably the book that made Ryan Holiday Ryan Holiday. I think that's fair to say, as in that was the book that sold the millions and millions of copies that have now propelled him into being a twenty-something times bestselling author. And the book pulls on stoic philosophy and the overarching principle of it is, I'm trying to remember the quote. I could probably recite it to you. It's something like, "The impediment to action advances the action. What stands in the way becomes the way." And the book is called The Obstacle is the Way. And so I just feel like that is what you're describing, that the obstacle of having this confined amount of space means it's easier to solve the problem because that is the way forward. I just love that your packing dilemma I've somehow related to stoicism.

Jen: Wow. I'm so delighted by this. And okay, now we're going to really get into the packing weeds of how I pack. In recent years, I've been using packing cubes, which are, you know, just the little containers you put your stuff in.

Pete: Wait, are these good? So I don't have these and I've often wondered if they're useful or not.

Jen: So the thing that makes them useful is when I travel on airplanes, which I do a lot, just not usually to go away for the summer, I have to bring a specific size suitcase. And like your dad, if I'm not going somewhere for a long time, I try to make it a carry-on.

Pete: Yeah, me too.

Jen: Right? So I know how many packing cubes fit in my suitcase. And this one is for shirts and this one is for pants and this one is for underwear and socks and this one is for workout clothes. So once it's full, I can't pack anymore.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So yeah, I'm realizing, Pete, this might be a good thing that I'm flying instead of driving.

Pete: Yeah, I think it is. This is what...I mean, constraints get a bad rap. Constraints are things that people think hold us back and limit us to be able to do the things we want to do. But what we actually discover through the metaphor of packing is constraints are the point. They're the enabler for decisions and progress and, in this case, packing.

Jen: Okay, now let me bring up one other element of the dilemma.

Pete: One other gripe? Come on, let's go.

Jen: Some of our listeners are really going to relate to this. And some of our listeners are going to be like, "What are you even talking about?" Okay, so here's the dilemma. I spend most of my life in things that are comfortable to wear. Jeans, shorts, an occasional dress, usually some sort of a sneaker, tennis shoe, or flip-flop. And I also have a series of events that I will have to attend out of town. And I shan't wear the same thing to each one. So this requires a different...usually it's a dress of some sort. Now, a dress, easy. Fold it up. Roll it up. It doesn't take up that much space. But each dress requires a different pair of shoes, Pete. And packing things that you're only going to use once is so frustrating when they take up a lot of space.

Pete: Oh, I agree with that. There is nothing more frustrating than packing something that doesn't get used or packing something that you only use once.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I guess the question on my mind is, can we challenge that assumption that we have to have a different pair of shoes for every single outfit? Is that true? Is there not a pair of, for me, white sneakers that I will wear with a jean? Or you could actually wear with a blazer and chinos and suit pants if you wanted. Like, you could maybe, just maybe, play around with...listeners, if you saw the look Jen's giving me, like, I'm absolutely in territory that I'm scared to enter. She might rip my head off. But I'm like, maybe we could just pack one less pair of shoes.

Jen: Well, it's just...I fully hear you. And I so believe you that that is something that is possible for some people. But in the words of Mama Rose, some people ain't me.

Pete: Ah, I love it. I love it. Well, then, I think that's okay. We all have our quirks. You know, I'll probably pack four notepads, even though I've got limited space and I could probably just pack one.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So that would be my equivalent. And so I guess it's back to this idea that that's okay, but everything costs something. So if the decision I make is that I want to have a different pair of shoes for all my different outfits, that's cool. The cost of that might mean I got to use my Kindle because I can't fit five books. Or I don't know, I got to buy some socks when I get there because I'm not going to pack socks. Whatever it is, it's just like every decision that we make has a cost.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And so it's cool that we make decisions that we're comfortable with and we're proud of and like, "I want the shoes, I have the shoes." Cool. That's great. But let's not forget that that's not going to cost anything. Like something's got to give, I think I mentioned, is an expression that gets thrown around our house a lot with two full-time busy individuals and a small toddler running around our house. Sometimes we're like, "Something's got to give. Tonight is not the night to be trying to cook dinner. We're going to get some takeaway." "Something's got to give. I've got to go to Sydney tomorrow and Ollie's got to get to daycare." And so we need our friend to come and help us do pick and drop off, whatever it is. So I don't know. I guess you can take your clothes, Jen, or your shoes. But maybe we've got to dust off this Kindle. What do you think?

Jen: Well, it's reminding me of this exercise I do. It's not even really an exercise. It's a question I ask in my audition workshop on the day that we're discussing the contents of an actor's audition book. I will say, "Can you identify for yourself what you think is the most well-written piece in your audition book?" And then people have a smile on their face and they're like, "Yes." And then I say, "Can you identify what is the most poorly written song in your audition book?" And if I see someone nod, I'm like, "That song's got to go." You can't have something in your book that you think is poorly written. That is a reflection of you. And you've just basically told me that you don't think that is a good piece of writing. So I feel like I need to sort of play that game with my suitcase and go like, "What is the best pair of shoes?"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: "What's the worst pair of shoes?" And then those got to go.

Pete: Yeah. Nice. I like that. That's a good rule. And also, I just feel like, I mean, I think about this all the time with packing, especially when I'm going on an airplane. There are shops in my destination.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And if I get to the place that I'm going and I'm like, "Goddammit, I really wish I had another pair of white shoes. Oh, goddammit, I really wish I had a different hat." Go and buy one. Go and get yourself a hat. It's going to be okay if you don't take your green cap from here. You could buy a cap.

Jen: Yeah. What is the panic that I feel around not having something that I could so easily get? That's something for me to unpack in therapy tomorrow morning.

Pete: Well, we started with packing, we drifted into stoicism, and we ended back at unpacking in therapy.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short of It.