The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 421 - Leading People Who Don’t Want To Be Led

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Peter.

Pete: I've been asked this question a bunch of times recently, in particular from a friend of mine yesterday. And it's a question I feel like I know your answer to already.

Jen: Oh?

Pete: But I want to check my own predictive powers, and maybe understand why your answer is your answer.

Jen: Oh, I'm glad to know I'm that predictable.

Pete: I mean, we've done a lot of podcast episodes. I've spoken to you a lot about some version of this. The question is, how do you lead people that don't want to be led?

Jen: [laughing] Alright. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Your laugh says it all. I feel like your answer is the same as my answer.

Jen: Okay, Pete. Yes, so we're changing the name of this podcast to The Short Of It. Because my answer to the question, "How do you lead someone who doesn't want to be led," is, "You don't."

Pete: And that is The Short Of It. No, I agree. I have the same answer. That was my same response. I had this conversation with a friend on a walk, just the other day. And she said some version of, "How do I lead people that don't want to be led? I have this team. And in this team, I've got some leaders who are super energized, super engaged, very keen on the direction we are heading. And then, I have others that are just not. And they're just dragging their heels. They're making things hard. They're not at all contributing to where we want to go. How do I lead them? How do I approach this?" Now, I agree. My answer is, "You don't." And I also was like, "That's not always that useful."

Jen: Correct.

Pete: Because in her case, she is like, "So, what, I just fire them? There are things that I can and can't do within the context of working in a corporate, for example." So I agree, the answer is, "You don't." I agree. So, maybe we can talk about why. But also, I feel like there's some nuance to...people, especially working in companies, are very often constrained by their ability to just go, "I'm not going to lead you. You're all off the team. You're fired." Which may be appropriate sometimes, but isn't appropriate all the time. So, maybe there's some nuance here.

Jen: Okay. I think the nuance is, people who wish to be led like knowing that the leader is leading. I think there is a flip side to this, which is stealthy leadership that doesn't look like what the other person who doesn't wish to be led might consider someone trying to lead them. Or maybe they would see it as someone trying to force their hand. So stealthy leadership would maybe look like, I'm immediately thinking about the, "Are you okay," framework, which I use a lot with people. Which is to say what you think you are seeing, followed by, "Are you okay?"

Pete: Oh, interesting. I don't think I've heard of this.

Jen: Oh, it's so powerful. Instead of saying like, "You're really bringing the team down. And we're not hitting our goals because of you. And you're creating a toxic environment," or whatever it is, you say, "You seemed kind of quiet in the meeting today or you seemed kind of disappointed by the suggestions on the table today. Are you okay?"

Pete: Nice.

Jen: I have used this with clients. I've used this with friends. I've used this with colleagues. And I've used it with complete strangers. And it is the most disarming question. Because if someone is the kind of person who wants you to be worried about them, they take it as their opportunity to tell you what's wrong. And if the person is the kind of person who does not want people to worry about them, they take the opportunity to tell you what the problem is, so that you don't worry. It's like such a disarming question.

Pete: Yeah, I love it. Okay. So that would mean, just sticking with that in particular, a couple of things. One: "Are You Okay Day" is like a mental health awareness day, here in Australia. I don't know if it's global. But I just heard you say that and was like, "Oh, I think Are You Okay Day was recent. Maybe you're referring to that." But that's different.

Jen: No, I've never heard of that.

Pete: It's about encouraging you to check in with your friends, essentially. So, I like that idea of...what I think about when I think about feedback, and I use this framework all the time, is OC: Observation and Curiosity. Well, I feel like what you just described is an observation and a curiosity. "Here's something I observed. And then, I get curious about it." I don't go and make a bunch of judgments or assumptions about it. Like, "Hey, Pete. I noticed you were twenty minutes late to the meeting yesterday. And I'm curious what happened? Or I'm wondering where you were?" As opposed to, "Hey, Pete. I noticed you were twenty minutes late to the meeting yesterday, which means now I know you don't give a crap about this project. You disrespected me. And frankly, I think you're rude." And it's like woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.

Jen: Hold on a second. Hold on a second.

Pete: "Maybe there was a reason he was late. Let me give you a chance to explain." So yeah, "Are you okay," is nice. I like that as an observation and a curiosity. For what it's worth, I almost want to push back on the question, "Are you okay?" Because it feels like you could just say, "Yes," or, "No," and that's it. I kind of want to say, "What's on your mind," which is more open, which might create a different conversation. But I feel like it's so nitpicky. It's a version of the same thing.

Jen: Well, I think it's whatever words make sense coming out of your mouth, with the intention of giving that person an opportunity to speak their mind. Some people might think that, "Are you okay," is too personal, and a better wording would be, "Is everything okay?"

Pete: Right. Yep. That's fair. Okay. I like that stealthy leadership. Can we go back to that? I love this idea of Trojan Horsing leadership. We talked about Trojan Horsing on a recent episode. And I think you're right. Generally speaking, how I think about it...if I zoom right back and go back to the original question, "How do you lead people that don't want to be led?" I was a bit like you. I was like, "Well, you don't." Although in order to get to the answer of, "You don't," you kind of probably try first. In fact, you do try first. In order to realize there are people that can't be led, I imagine you have to have tried to lead them first. So first, I want to go back to how might you lead them. Like this stealthy leadership example, I think that you came up with, is a great idea. Before we go, "This person absolutely cannot be led,"...which, those people exist. There might be some things we can try, some interventions we can try to see if we might be able to stealthily lead them or get them on the bus, to understand more of their perspective so that they can get on the bus, so that we can actually move forward. In which case, maybe they could be led. And so, I want to kind of start there, which you identified beautifully. What have you tried? What do you know about them? What's going on for them? What's in their mind? What's their worldview? How do they view the problem you're trying to solve? Can you enroll them in that? Like, what do you notice? "This is the direction I think we should go, Jen. How do you think we should get there? Can I get you enrolled in that, in some capacity, so that you're then more likely to feel like you want to come on the journey with me?"

Jen: Yes. And I would say that falls under that heading of stealthy leadership. That a person who is resistant to being led does not want someone to go to them and say, "I am your leader."

Pete: Totally. Yeah, there's an allergy to that. And it might not even be they say it that explicitly. But because of the hierarchy, because of the way the meeting is structured, whatever, that's the story they tell themselves. It's like, "Oh, Jen is just over here just overtly leading all over me. And I don't like it. I'm pushing back."

Jen: Right. So we have versions of this in the work that I do, in like very organizational-based ways, like if you are in a show and there are managers. And there's all of that. But even in coaching, there are some people who want...we wouldn't call it "leadership" in this context, we'd call it "direction". Some people really thrive on direction. And other people feel stifled by it, even though actors need it in order to get the best work out of themselves. So with certain actors who I can feel the resistance when I offer a suggestion or a note or an adjustment, I might say to them, "Oh, I think I see what you're trying to do."

Pete: Nice.

Jen: Where I make it their idea, not my idea. And then, they are much more open to considering it. But if I said to them, "You know what? I think you should do this," they would be so resistant.

Pete: Right. Oh, that's interesting. I love that subtle frame change. It also makes me think of that idea of like...we've talked about this before. I learned it from Paul Jun, and Seth Godin has talked about it. "Don't steal the revelation." When leading someone, can you guide them towards the revelation, the aha moment, the insight themselves, as opposed to giving it to them? Which, this is what you're describing. And then, every now and then...I remember having this conversation with a mutual friend of ours, Ian Scott. Every now and then, you come across someone and it's like, "You've got to steal the revelation. You've got to give it to them. They need it. You've just got to give it to them. And then, they're going to go and make stuff happen. This is a person that doesn't want to, or maybe even just this is a person in a particular context where it's not about coaching and gently trying to get them to have the revelation. Just give them the revelation, Pete. And let's go. Just give them the revelation." But yeah, which was a real learning for me.

Jen: I'm connecting the dots back to a recent episode we did about speaking what's on your mind or like speaking your mind out loud. And in that episode, we talked a little bit about leaders creating the container for people to actually think out loud.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And something that's just, I'm flashing back to my days being a person in a dressing room with other actors, when I was in a show. So go back twenty years now, I'm in a show. And everyone in our dressing room is disgruntled about something for some reason, like some petty, annoying thing that is going on in the building. It's small. But it adds up, because we're spending so much time there. And then, this directive comes down from General Management, where it's like, "Hey, everyone. We're taking this in a direction where like our new belief system, our new cause, our new vision is this. And we're going to have a meeting in the green room. And we're going to all celebrate this thing." And we're all looking at each other like, "Are you freaking kidding me? We haven't addressed the fact that we all need new shoelaces on our dance boots. And we have been asking for them for three weeks. But you want us to get jazzed about this cause that you've randomly committed to?" So I'm thinking about scenarios like that, which I have very much been the disgruntled person in. And what could someone have done in that meeting? Because the meeting wasn't about shoelaces. The meeting was about finding a more environmentally friendly way to run this building, which is like a great cause. But there was something else, that wasn't even related to the new direction, that was like very much bugging people. And we did not have the container to think out loud about how to solve it.

Pete: I am obsessed with this example. Because I feel like it covers so many reasons for disgruntlement about something else. That we might think this person doesn't want to be led on this project, but actually what might be going on is we haven't even got the basic hygiene right. We haven't got the right shoelaces. Or I've heard of this example in a hospital setting, of someone doing a big piece of strategy work. And as part of that strategy work, they were walking the wards in a hospital and they were asking nurses questions like, "What would you like to see in a strategy? We're thinking this big picture." And one of the nurses said something like, "We just need to stop running out of toilet paper. It is ridiculous that we can't even go to the bathroom and trust that there'll be enough toilet paper." And the person that was running the strategy meeting was like, "Huh. Here we are trying to come up with like the new vision of this entire organization. Actually, unless we get the toilet paper right, no one gives a shit."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Pun was not intended. And so, can we not lose sight of what's actually important to the people that we're trying to lead first? Get the hygiene stuff right. And then, try and talk about what is the direction we need to lead in and this is what it looks like to go there.

Jen: Okay. So going back to your original question, I now have a revised answer that I still think falls under this heading of stealthy leadership. But how do you lead someone who doesn't wish to be led? Create the conditions for them to share what's on their mind. And then, listen.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then, based on that, you pick next steps. But like, unless you actually know why the person feels like a prisoner in their job, or why they feel disrespected or not valued, yeah, no amount of vision casting is going to get them on board.

Pete: I totally agree. And then, I go, "Okay, I agree with that." So then, what I might learn is there are things like we talked about, easy hygiene factors, that, "Oh, actually, I could address these. And then, maybe they'd be less disgruntled. And maybe, actually, I would be able to lead them. That's good to know." Or it might be that the thing they're disgruntled about is something that will never change, because of the whole point of this organization. And so, when I was talking to my friend, I shared with her the two stories that I think about so often, both from incredibly high profile leaders that I admire, one being Seth Godin and one being Margaret Atwood. And I've been lucky enough to see them both in action. Where, in the context of Seth, we were running the altMBA online leadership workshop, that was deliberately run in a particular way that was sort of counter to how a lot of online learning modules were built. And every now and then, someone would come along and be like, "I don't want to take part in a program in this way. I don't want be led this way," is a paraphrased version of what they would say. "I think this is stupid for these reasons." And we would absolutely listen to them, to your point. I would try and understand what is it that they were disgruntled about. And sometimes, it would be the structure of the program they were disgruntled about. And I would think to myself, "Well, we're not going to change the structure of the program." And so, what Seth taught us was to, with absolute generosity and grace and confidence, say it's not for them, give them a refund, and say, "Thank you." And let's go back to the people who actually want to be here. And I was like, "Woah, there's so much power in that." Versus what I would try and do, which is save them, to go, "No, no, no. You don't understand. The reason we structure it this way is because of these brilliant reasons. It's actually super genius." And they're like, "I don't want to hear it. I think it's a load of crap." And so, it's okay to say to people, "You know what? It's not for you. Here's a refund. We appreciate your time. Good luck in the future." And Margaret Atwood did exactly the same thing. We ran a Practical Utopias online program, once upon a time. And some people thought it shouldn't have been run in a particular way. And she would say, "That's okay. It's not for them. Here's a refund. Off you go."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I just feel like the agency, the power in that, of going, "This is what we stand for. This is what we're trying to create. If you're on board with that, awesome. If you're disgruntled about that, let me understand more. And if the reason for your disgruntlement is not something we're going to change, it's okay. You can hop off the bus. You can walk away, and everything will be okay."

Jen: Yeah. I don't know why, this just reminded me of a friend of mine who runs a theater. And she told me that patrons come up all the time and tell her how she should be doing her job. And one of the strategies she uses when someone's like, "Hey, you know what show you should do," or, "You know what project you should implement," or, "You know what thing you should consider," she goes, "Oh, would you want to help with that?"

Pete: Nice.

Jen: Now, sometimes, people go, "No, it was just an idea." They just wanted to say something. But sometimes, people go, "Actually, yeah, I would. I'd help with that."

Pete: Interesting. They enroll themselves in the change. Nice.

Jen: Exactly. I thought that was a very clever way to engage people who have lots of ideas about how you should be doing what you're doing.

Pete: I love it. And where I found tension myself, as a leader doing this, is in this idea that you can't save everyone. And I would want to save everyone. I would want to be like, "But Jen, don't you see the reason we need to make this change? It's for this. I can get you back on board with this thing we're trying to do." Meanwhile, there are nineteen other people already running in that direction. And it's like, "You don't have to save everyone. You don't have to save Jen. Go focus on the nineteen. Go work with the nineteen. Thank the other person, wish them well, and carry on.

Jen: That's right. Pete, you currently have a three-year-old and another one on the way. So you've got about eleven or twelve years before you encounter a daily experience of leading someone who doesn't wish to be led, and figuring out how to show up with love and respect and openness and curiosity.

Pete: And boundaries.

Jen: Yeah. And boundaries. And help them become the person they want to be.

Pete: I mean, I've had a few conversations with a three-year-old that feel a lot like I'm leading someone who doesn't want to be led. "It's time to leave the playground, Ollie. It's getting very dark now." "Nope. I don't want to leave the playground." "Okay, how am I going to approach this? What are we going to do next?" Oh dear, that's very funny. Well, it turns out there's more to this question, I feel like, than a strict, "You don't."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: We can try and understand more about what's making people feel like they don't want to be led. And in doing so, we might discover there's a way to get them on board. And / or, maybe we'll discover there's a reason for their disgruntlement that is consistent with something you're deliberately trying to do or avoid doing. In which case, you can thank them. You can graciously say some version of, "Here's a refund. Good luck."

Jen: And that's The Long and The Short Of It.