The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 45 - Stories

Transcript:

Pete: Hey listeners, we just wanted to take a quick moment to say thank you so much. Thank you for all the support. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing the podcast. And if you are getting value, please take a screenshot of your favorite episode and send it to a friend. It helps us find more amazing listeners, like you.

Jen: Today happens to be an extra special day for Pete and myself, because we are launching our Box O' Goodies. Whereas other podcasts have show notes, we have afterthoughts. So the Box O' Goodies is a weekly email that not only sends you a link to that week's episode, but it also sends you links to other places, if you want to dig deeper into that week's topic. It might include recommendations for books, TED talks, podcasts, articles, blog posts. Anything that might help you look at that week's topic from a different angle, and ask more questions, we will include it in the Box O' Goodies, which you can get by going to thelongandtheshortpodcast.com.

Pete: Jen, hello.

Jen: Pete. Hello.

Pete: Just mixing up the intro. I have an assertion that I'd like to make, which is that you are one of the best of the best when it comes to storytelling.

Jen: Wow, thank you.

Pete: So, who better to unpack this idea that's been rattling around in my noggin, for the listeners, and for myself? Which has to do with the way in which we tell stories. And how changing certain frames, or facts, or things in a story can result in a completely different outcome, or completely different story altogether.

Jen: Yes, I enjoy this noggin rattle. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: You are on fire today, Jen Waldman.

Jen: Ah.

Pete: So, how this came about. The other day, I was catching up with someone I hadn't seen for years. I'm talking, like, ten years. And, as is always the case when you catch up with someone that you haven't seen for ten years, there's this awkward moment of like, "So...what's been going on?". And you're like, "I mean, how do I summarize ten years? It's a lot of time.". And so...

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah. So I did this...I don't know, I can't even remember what I said. But I did like, a quick thirty to sixty-second kind of summary, essentially, of like (what I realized in hindsight), was the highlights package. Was like, "This is what I've been doing. This is where I'm at. This is what I'm now working on. By the way, I've got a podcast, you should check it out.". And then...

Jen: Thanks for the plug.

Pete: Of course. And then my friend proceeded to do a similar thing, but downplay, a little bit more, the work that he'd been doing. Because I've been following on social media, as you do, so I knew a bit more about it. And so, what I realized that I had done is I'd given him the highlights package. All of which was true, all of which was things that have happened over the last ten years. And yet, I hadn't talked about the fact that there's been a lot of tough times, a lot of struggle, a lot of hardship, a lot of thrashing. You know, that has also happened within that ten years. But I just caught myself, and found it so interesting that I'd gone for the highlights package, because I felt like I needed to do so. And that, just as accurate a way to answer that question would be to talk about the lowlights package, or do a mix of both. And that the result of that would be, perhaps, a different perception of who I am, and what I've been doing. And so I've just like, been unpacking this from a number of different angles: of how the facts and the stories we use, in the broader stories were telling, can contribute to a different narrative, and a different outcome. So before I go any further, have you got some thoughts?

Jen: Yes. This immediately brought to mind our mutual client, Lili Torre, and her podcast, The Dreaded Question.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And the whole podcast is based on the question, "What have you been up to?". And so that's the, the dreaded question that she asks each of the guests. And last week, I asked her if I could come on to answer the dreaded question.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Because I was experiencing the thing that you're describing. Which is this like, immediately emotionally-triggering reaction where either someone gives the highlights, or the lowlights, or gives a totally evasive answer like, "A little bit of this, and a little bit of that.". So, essentially, my answer to the dreaded question is, "What do you mean?". Which is what I would call Peter Shepherd's, "What's the question behind the question?". Because when you haven't seen someone in ten years, and someone says, "What are you up to?". Or, "What have you been up to?". They might actually have something really specific they want to ask you about, but the door hasn't been opened yet. Or, they might not have something really specific to ask you about, and that door hasn't been opened yet. So, "what do you mean," is a great way to open the door to allow them to frame what the conversation is going to be.

Pete: Mmm. Such a brilliant, Jen Waldman response. I knew I could count on you for that. So, taking this idea into a practical example I've been thinking about...and I remember this, this comes to mind because once upon a time, you and I recorded an episode that didn't make it off the cutting room floorhi. Which was to do with...

Jen: Mh-hmm. Which one? [laughter]

Pete: There's been many. There's been many. But this one in particular was to do with...I think it was to do with interviews, or job interviews.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Do you remember that one? And, and essentially, what we were unpacking was that depending on how you answer the questions, you can tell a completely different story. Both of which are probably true. And so I think it's really interesting to think about this idea from, from the context of, say, a job interview.

Jen: So I was...I still have a little sadness that we never released that episode. Because it really was not up to par, but the big idea in it was pretty good. So maybe we could share that here, which is: The Trader Joes Effect.

Pete: Yeah. Go. Hit me with that. I really enjoyed the episode. (But yeah, it was only for about three minutes, and then the rest I think we were just rambling.)

Jen: The rest of it had to go. So, The Trader Joe's Effect is a term I learned from another one of our mutual clients, Jenna P. (Shout out to Jenna Pastuszek.) Which is, essentially, the idea that you could go to a grocery store...a supermarket if you will, and want to buy orange juice. And there are, like, a million brands of orange juice, and you can't really figure out what makes one better or different than the others. But when you go to Trader Joe's, the only thing you're going to find there is Trader Joe's Orange Juice, because they are so certain of who they are, and what they make, and how they make it. And in an interview, it's really easy to become the supermarket orange juice instead of the Trader Joe's, by answering the questions with the answers that you think someone else would give, which would make you somehow credible to be in the position you're being interviewed for. Instead of doubling down on who you are, what you believe, what you're about, how you operate- so that you become that Trader Joe's version of your story.

Pete: Mmm, that is so good. So like, just to think through a real example, just so I'm clear...if I was in a job interview, and someone said, "Tell me about, uh, tell me about yourself.". And I said, "Well, I have a podcast, I have a blog, I coach people, I speak. Like, all of these things are true. They're kind of just, like, facts about who I am. Versus, if someone asked me that question in an interview, and I said, "Well, everything I do is about helping others see things they can't. Right? And, so much so that people have referred to me as The Human Periscope. Hahaha. I'm also six-foot-seven, so the metaphor works on a number of levels.". Like both of those stories, both of those stories are true. One is so much more interesting than the other, right? Like, listing what I do is not untruthful. But it's what everyone else is probably going to do. And it's not, it's not (to your point), making me stand out like the Trader Joe's version of Pete. Is that right?

Jen: Yeah. My, my brother-in-law, who is in the world of business has spoken to me a lot about the art of the resume, which I think is really interesting. And actually, when I was applying years ago for an artistic position, he was the one who helped me actually find the right narrative for my resume. Because basically he was like, "You say you're a storyteller, right?". I'm like, "Yeah.". He goes, "Yeah, the story of this resume is all over the place. So you're not proving that you're a great storyteller with the way you've laid this out.". I was like, "Oh, thanks for that.". But, essentially, what he said is- if on your resume, you say that you formerly held the position of Marketing Director. And then you list the things you did in that role, and they are the things that any marketing director in any company, anywhere, has done...how does that help me know who you are? Don't tell me what's in the job description. Tell me what you brought to the job that made it your unique contribution. What is your special sauce that you contribute when you are operating as a marketing director, as opposed to "handled all the marketing"?

Pete: "Did some marketing stuff." Yes. Okay. So this, this ties into so many things. One of which we talk about all the time, which is understanding who it's for. So, if we're talking about a resume, or a job interview, or even just the question of my friend...understanding who that person is, what they're interested in, what motivates them, what they're looking for, will help you identify: what's the question behind the question? So that the story you tell is relevant to what they're looking for. Because we all have a backpack full of, like, hundreds of stories. All which are true, but some of which are irrelevant to the person on the other side of the table. So, some of them they just don't care about, and that's just the reality. So it's about having the ability to pull out the right story from your backpack, knowing who is on the other side of the table. Understanding, from an empathetic point of view- what motivates them? What do they tell their boss? What stories do they tell themselves? You know, what podcasts do they listen to? What books do they read? All of the things that give you an insight into who they are, I think, is helpful, to then pull out the right story.

Jen: And then, the next logical question is, "What's it for?". So now you've identified the "who", the question is- what is the intention? What do you want the outcome of this to be? So in the case of your run in with your friend, you could have had some quick thinking there that you could have done, but you also...when you have an experience once, and it doesn't go in the most ideal way, fine. But if you have that same experience again, and you don't achieve your ideal outcome, that's on you. So, what this gives you the opportunity to do is say, "It's very likely that at some point in the future, I will run into another friend I haven't seen in a long time. And what is the ideal outcome for that run in? To connect in a meaningful way? To find some common ground, so that we want to see each other again? Is it to revive what once was...?". Like, who knows what it might be. But if you can go into that conversation with intention, you can come out on the other side having felt good about the interaction, and in integrity with yourself. So, the "what's it for" becomes really important as well.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah, I love that. I wish...I have to just pause for a moment. We got there in the end, in terms of- we ended up sitting down for coffee for like, forty-five minutes. And so I had the opportunity to understand, in the end, what it was for. And what it was actually for was- he's starting his own business. And he was super interested in, in how I started my business. And so we ended up having this great conversation. And I pulled the relevant stories from my backpack about the hard parts of starting a business, but also the joyous parts of starting a business. We got there eventually. And, I totally agree- this is something that you do gotta to ask yourself in the moment. Like, "Huh, what is this interaction for?". And often, the interaction is probably for some form of connection, which I think is where empathy leads to.

Jen: Can we apply this to the job interview for a second, since that was our hypothetical situation?

Pete: Please do.

Jen: That when you go into a job interview...unless this is interview number two, or three or four, I think it might be misguided to assume that the "what's it for", is to get the job.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: And instead, it's like to determine if this is a good fit, that is mutually beneficial for both sides. Or, to learn more about the ways in which my contribution could make an impact to this organization's contribution. So that will shape the way you ask questions of the interviewer, as well. So it becomes a...more of a conversation, and less of a one-sided monologue.

Pete: Yeah. And I'll do a...I'll do a job at trying to unpack an example I heard recently, which is in your industry (so, way out of my level of expertise). And the question I heard that often gets asked by, perhaps in an interview with an agent, is- "Have you ever had an agent before?". And so, I heard that question and I went, "Oh, okay. That's not the real question. The question behind the question is: are you going to talk bad about other people? So: can I trust you?". Do you think...is that, like, a fair assessment of that question?

Jen: Yes. Now, I also think that there are two motivations behind that question. One is- are you going to talk smack about other people? And two- will I get to say, "I discovered you"?

Pete: Ooh, that's a good one. I hadn't thought of that. I like that. Which is, it's just a perfect example of how there's always...there tends to be a question behind the question. So if we can think about that, then we can respond with an answer that is relevant to what they're actually asking.

Jen: This makes me want to, for some reason, jump over to the backpack of truth that you were talking about. Where you've got all these true stories in a backpack?

Pete: I do. And I have some thoughts on that. But yes, please. Go.

Jen: So one of the things I try to live by is: Don't tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Instead, just tell the truth that matters in this moment. Which, I think to your point is: share the relevant truth.

Pete: Totally.

Jen: Share the thing that is meaningful to both people. That doesn't mean obscure the truth. That doesn't mean tell little white lies and fibs. But it means that I don't necessarily need you to unpack every single detail of every single element, in order for the thing that you're sharing to be meaningful.

Pete: Yeah. And someone who we've referenced a number of times on this podcast, Brene Brown, talks about this when she says, "Yes, I encourage vulnerability. Yes, I encourage going first, and daring greatly, and being authentic. And, when I'm in an executive meeting and I need to, like, get some people to do some stuff, I'm not going to sit there and have a pity party. I'm going to, like, give direction. And say, 'This is what we need to do. And this is why.'". So that, to me, is like pulling the relevant truth out of the story. Or rather, the relevant story out of the backpack.

Jen: I love the backpack of truth.

Pete: So, on that. I didn't realize this was like...it was one of those things that I said off-the-cuff to a client and they were like, "Tell me more about that.". And so what I said was, "I literally have a physical book, a notepad, that is dedicated to only stories.". And so, all I have in that...

Jen: Really?

Pete: Yeah. All I have in there are stories. This is my virtual...this is my backpack. It's a, it's a notebook that literally goes in my backpack, full of stories. Because, through working with you, and understanding the power of and the significance of storytelling, what I've realized is that the value of storytelling is almost immeasurable. And so if you can tell a really good story, you can connect with a whole bunch of people. You can create change. And so, what I've done is started capturing them in this notebook. So, I literally have a notebook full of stories that I...when I remember, I write them down. I scribble them down. And I've actually told a number of clients this, and a few of them have started doing it as well. So, the backpack o' stories is real.

Jen: Okay, wait, wait, wait. I gotta, I gotta dig into this a little bit more. Because now I want to imagine what this entails. So when you say you write down the story, do you mean that you just write down a prompt that would get you to remember the story? Are you literally writing it out in detail? Are you coming up with what the moral of the story is? What does it look like to write down a story?

Pete: So, I love that you asked this because that was the tension point from before me starting. Was- I can't start this until I'm clear on what's the structure of each story. And then, what I realized was I was holding myself back. And that sometimes, I write an entire story that is two-pages long. Other times, I just write: "The Coffee Shop Story", and I know that, what that is in my head. So, the answer is there's no hard and fast rule. It's a mixture of both. And, one probably most prevalent theme I've seen throughout is this, like, little framework that I really like. Which is- I was once like you, in that I thought... Then I realized... Or, then I discovered, then I realized, or, then I experienced... And now I think... So it's like: I thought this, the story happened, and now I think this. And I've used that a few times, which is probably the most common framework.

Jen: Yeah. It sounds like...in the world of drama- the plot emerges, the plot develops, the plot concludes.

Pete: Right, exactly. Not that revolutionary.

Jen: But I think it's actually quite useful. If any of the listeners are like, "Oh, gosh, I'm not a great writer. I don't know if I could write down a whole story.". To know that- it doesn't have to be a whole story. And by the way, you don't have to publish it. It's for you.

Pete: Right. It's three dot points that go in your book, that no one else reads. And sometimes I remember them and refer to them, and other times I forget. And that's okay.

Jen: So, when you once again shake this noggin-rattle, Pete, what is the moral of this story?

Pete: I think the moral of the story is acknowledging that the way we tell a story shapes the narrative that comes off the back of the story. And that we can choose what story we tell. Which means we can choose the narrative that we can tell. And that one way to do so is to think about who's it for. Think about what it's for. And then, think about capturing and creating a bank of stories (all of which are true), so that at the right time, you can tell the right story to create the change that you seek to create in that particular interaction.

Jen: Well, consider this noggin rattled. That is The Long and The Short Of It.