The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 59 - Coaching and Teaching

Transcript:

Jen: Well, hello there you wonderful, generous listeners. One of you reached out to us recently and asked, "How can I help you with the podcast?". What a wonderful question. So, thank you for asking. And, we thought we might answer it for all of you. You could help us by sharing this podcast with someone who you think might get some value out of it. How about taking a screenshot of your phone right now and texting it to someone you care about? With a little message like, "Thought of you when I heard this today.".

Pete: Mmm, love that. Thank you, listener. The other thing you might want to do is sign up for our weekly Box O' Goodies, which is an email that Jen and I send out every week, with a list of our favorite resources relevant to that week's episode. You can sign up at thelongandtheshortpodcast.com, and you can also browse our transcripts and all of our other episodes, and there's a couple of ridiculous photos, and ways to contact both Jen and I. Thanks for listening.

Pete: Hey, hey, hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, hey, hey, Peter.

Pete: I am back in Melbourne now, which is...

Jen: Nooo.

Pete: ...sad for the work that we're doing. But I've been reflecting a lot on the work we did, and have been doing over the last month. And it got me thinking about a distinction that you made to me, actually, which was the distinction between coaching and teaching. And I thought it might be worth talking about.

Jen: Yes, I do think it's worth talking about. So let's talk about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, so, teach me.

Pete: Well, let me paint a little context, first. You and I have been running a really fun and amazing workshop with an incredible group of people for the last four weeks.

Jen: Yes, we have.

Pete: It's the first time we've ever run it. We've been noodling, and thinking, and planning to run something like this for a long time together. So, it's been amazing and exciting. And we've both learned a lot, I think.

Jen: I think we need to tell people more than that.

Pete: Yeah, I was a bit vague. Please, tell us some more, Jen.

Jen: The workshop is called The Big Ideas Lab. And essentially, what we've been doing is helping change-makers who are sitting on change-making ideas, get clear on their ideas, build their content, put their content in teachable formats (like keynotes, workshops, webinars, etc.), and create mechanisms, "stickiness" as it were, for helping their concepts to land.

Pete: Such a better description, so much more specific. Now people actually know what I'm talking about. Thank you for painting the picture.

Jen: Oh, you're so welcome.

Pete: And so what happened is, in the lead up to the first week of The Big Ideas Lab, you and I were on the whiteboard, we were talking about the plan of action for the in-person classes. So, it was a mix of in-person and online, because I happened to be in New York, which was amazing. So, we had this amazing conversation around the difference between teaching and coaching. And you helped me to see, like, really clearly that there is a distinction between the two, and that there is a time and a place for both. Because what I realized in that moment is, I've done a lot of coaching. And part of that is this idea that there's no right answer. Part of that is, most leaders and change-makers that I work with have the answer, or the idea, in their head somewhere. And that as a coach, I just provide the space, and the questions, and the tools in order for them to, like, extract it from their own brain. And so it's less about me saying, "Do this thing. Try this thing.". And more about, "What would it look like if you tried this thing?". And what became clear as we were planning out The Big Ideas Lab is, there is a need to teach some, some real skills. Some hard skills and soft skills, but some skills nonetheless, that require more of a teaching posture as opposed to a coaching posture.

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. So, when you are a coach, essentially what you're doing is helping people to make good on the assets they already have, the skills they already have. You are helping them to realize their full potential with what they already possess. Whereas with teaching, you're actually providing someone access to something they don't yet possess. It might be knowledge, or a skill set, or any number of things. But when you are in teaching-mode, you are building the assets. And when you're in coaching-mode, you're honing them.

Pete: Wow, my mind just exploded a little bit hearing you talk about that again. That is so good. So good. So it's, like, building the toolbox, instead of showing you what's in the toolbox.

Jen: So when we were in The Big Ideas Lab, the reason we had this conversation is because we wanted to get super clear about- when are we showing up with our coaching posture, and when are we showing up with our teaching posture. Like, when it comes to helping someone articulate their big idea...they already have their big idea. We are not teaching them about their big idea. We're just coaching them. We're coaching them, holding space, helping them thrash, helping them sort. But when it comes to: How to take your big idea, and structure it for a forty-five minute keynote, for example...well, many of those people had never delivered a keynote before. They knew nothing about keynote structure. They didn't know how to make their content sticky. So, we were literally teaching that skill set.

Pete: Mmm, based on the knowledge and the insight that we had. Right? I think that's the, that's the really interesting distinction is- I've, I've talked about on this podcast before, and I've talked about with you, that sometimes I don't realize...sometimes I forget to realize that, that there are things that I do, practices that I have, that are things that are worth teaching, and things that maybe not everybody knows. And I think this is true with a lot of people, and a lot of creatives, is we sometimes downplay, or undersell the intellectual property/knowledge that we possess. And so, what I really appreciate about that distinction is it helps me realize that there are teachable things that I think all of us have, teachable skills and knowledge, that we can impart on other people. And so, on a selfish level it was great for me to realize that. So thanks, Jen. You taught me about teaching. It's all very meta.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I love that so much. This just made me remember a conversation I was having with a client of mine yesterday, who had just completed a workshop that I was teaching for the last four weeks called Shift, which is all about shifting your mindset. And she said, "I want to take what I've learned in here and teach it to other people.". And I was like, "You should! You should absolutely go and do that.". And so, we started talking about- what do you need in order to be a teacher? And what do you need in order to be a coach? And my feeling is that- to be a coach, if you can help someone get better at what they do, you're a coach...whether you call it that or not. But in order to call yourself a teacher, you have to be able to impart specific knowledge that the other person doesn't already possess. And so, you might be moving back and forth between those two roles in your own life, listener, and not even recognize it. But if you really look at it, you may already very well be a coach- someone who is helping other people get better all the time. And it's funny because I used to, in the work I was doing at the studio, call myself an acting teacher. But I don't do that anymore. Although I am teaching acting technique, in many of my classes I'm not teaching technique. I am sitting back as the coach, and helping people work with what they already have. So, I've been trying to adopt specific postures in my own work for the last couple years, because I do see that there's a big difference. If I show up to help someone get better at what they already have- I speak to them differently, I create more silence, I give them more opportunity to come up with the answers. But if I have the answers, and the person I'm talking to literally doesn't have them because nobody's taught them before, then I'll teach them.

Pete: Yeah. So, I love this distinction. Because, to what you just described, you can, you can, like, make the mindset shift in your head in the moment, and it can happen very quickly. So, since we've been running The Big Ideas Lab, I have a number of one-on-one clients that I work with. And I've had moments where I've been on a one-on-one coaching call with a client, and I've, like, realized that they're coming up against a knowledge gap. And that no amount of coaching is going to get them through that. And so I've been like, just in my head, I'm like, "Ah, I see, this is an opportunity for me to teach them a framework that I find useful.". And so I'll actually say to them, "Here's a framework that I find useful. Let me teach it to you.". And I just like, go through explaining it. And it's been, like, very successful. People have been like, "That is so helpful. Thank you.". So it's...I think knowing that there is a time and a place for each, and a time and a place for both, has been quite profound.

Jen: I think you've just landed on something really important, which is- being able to identify when there is a genuine knowledge gap. And it's funny because one of the people in The Big Ideas Lab, one of the ideas she's working on is acknowledging knowledge gaps. Not only in other people, but in yourself. And learning those three little words- "I don't know.". And I think as a teacher it is your responsibility, if you don't know how to fill someone else's knowledge gap, to be upfront about that and say, "I don't know. Either let me see if I can find that out for you, or let me point you to this other resource that might be able to help you.".

Pete: Yes, yes. Those three words, I think, are so underrated. Which, I'm excited to see the keynote/ workshop, big idea in action.

Jen: One more thing on that point is- I think, sometimes people in a teaching capacity put a coach-hat on, to hide from having to say, "I don't know.". Like, it drives me crazy. If I am self-aware of a knowledge gap, and I ask a teacher for knowledge, and they say, "See if you can figure it out for yourself.". It's like, well, that's why I'm here. I want you to teach me something. Like, if I could rely on the knowledge I already have, help me to see where I'm not applying my knowledge. But I also need to recognize that I have a knowledge gap, and I'm coming to you to help me fill it. So it would be more helpful if, instead of telling me to figure it out, you simply said, "I don't know. There's probably somewhere else where you can find that information.".

Pete: Mmm. So, okay...this leads me to the other side then, which is- those being taught/those being coached. I have a few questions for you on this. The first is just building on what you talked about. And that is, like, what level of responsibility do I have, as the person, to know I'm going here for teaching, or I'm going here for coaching? Do you think it's reliant, or incumbent on them to realize when they need certain contexts? Or is it more on the teacher/coach?

Jen: You don't know what you don't know. But, what you do know is the outcome you're looking for. So...

Pete: Yes.

Jen: ...I might come to you, Peter, and say, "I want to start a startup.". And then you might say to me, "Well, which part of that would you like to know?". And I might have to respond, "Well, I know nothing about building a startup. But I know I would like to build one. So teach me about the pieces that have to fall in place.". So, you as the student- the clearer you can articulate your vision for what you're aiming for, the better. You probably don't know the step-by-step, but you know why you showed up that day. You know what problem you're trying to solve, or the, the thing you're trying to ultimately do. And then the other part is if, if you go back and listen to the Feedback episode, a lot of teaching comes in the form that we would call feedback. And if you can get good at asking for the kind of feedback you need, you're more likely to grow in the direction you wish to grow.

Pete: Hmm, yes. So, I think this is the case-study for why a question like, "What does success look like for me?", is so important. Because, I often ask people this before we do a coaching session, or before we run a workshop, which is- "What does success look like for you? Like, what are you hoping to get out of this?". Because then, all of a sudden, it helps them sit in that and go, "Okay, well, I would love to get a different perspective on this thing." And I'm like, "A different perspective? Cool. That sounds like coaching to me.". Versus, "I would love to learn this specific knowledge about this specific thing.". And I'm like, "Cool, that sounds...now I get that. That's more like teaching.". So, I think the question you could ask, if you're out there, is- "What does success look like for me?". Slash, you know, "What am I looking for out of this?".

Jen: Yeah, that's really good.

Pete: The other thing I was thinking about, as the recipient, is in relation to a few episodes we've done recently around being stuck, around hiding. And that is, is it harder to be the recipient of coaching vs. the recipient of teaching? My assertion in this moment, having just asked the question, is yes. I think it's harder to receive coaching than it is to receive teaching. And I think it's easier to hide in teaching. And before I keep ranting about that, I would love your thoughts.

Jen: Well, this goes back to, "What's it for?". The, the good ol' "What's it for?". Because one of the things I've heard in the acting industry, from people in various administrative positions, is that sometimes actors get stuck in going to classes. And I'm like, "Hmm. I'm not sure if that's really what you mean. Maybe what you mean is actors get stuck in pretending that they don't know enough, so they go to classes.". But the classes that I'm in with actors are very coaching-based. Where, they're just getting better and better at using the skills they've already learned. So they're, they're not hiding out in there. They're actually getting stronger, so that they can put their work in front of people. And they're simultaneously building on the skills that they have, and putting their work out. It's when you hide in the fact that- "I'll never know enough. I need to always look at my knowledge gaps as a reason to not put my work out there.". That's when it can become a trap. And I don't think that that was actually the question you asked. But I think it is important to constantly be learning new things. And, to appreciate that what you already know is enough to work with, to get started at whatever the next thing is.

Pete: I love it. I think, if I was to reflect on the question myself, even...I guess what I was, what I was thinking in my head was, teaching in the traditional sense. Which is, you're sitting in a lecture theatre listening, or you're sitting in a classroom and listening, and that it's very passive. And, let's be real, not that effective. That, what I just wrote down is, I wonder if a really good educational experience, a really good workshop, a really good class, always has elements of both.

Jen: Yes!

Pete: Elements of coaching, and elements of teaching. And that they are not, necessarily, entirely independent. But they're actually interrelated, and complementary to one another.

Jen: This is something I rage about at the studio, which is practical application. Once you are taught something, where does the rubber meet the road? That's where the coaching comes in. So, I've taught you the skill set, or I've taught you the idea, and now put it into use. Actually, practically apply this new knowledge. And then, I will coach you through the practical application. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Pete: So, we start with the knowledge gap that we can fill through teaching. We put it into action through an activity, or an exercise. And then, we have coaching that makes them get even better at that practical application. Huh.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: That's good, Jen Waldman. That's good. And, of course, what I realize now is- that's what we did in The Big Ideas Lab. I just hadn't connected that dot until this moment.

Jen: Yep. Well, you've just taught yourself something new.

Pete: I know. It's all very meta. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.