The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 61 - Nudge Forward

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Peter.

Pete: I've been sitting here in analysis paralysis for the last five minutes, trying to work out what we can talk about. And then it dawned on me that I'm in analysis paralysis. And that what I need to do is to nudge forward towards a topic.

Jen: Ooh, I've never actually heard you use the phrase "nudge forward". I want to know more about that.

Pete: I'm glad you said that because that's what I thought we could talk about- this concept of nudging things forward.

Jen: Well, let's do that. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So the other day I was facilitating a workshop, where we were unpacking, actually, a couple of the episodes that we've recorded recently around being stuck, around thrash to action, and even around brainstorming. And kind of picking apart what it means to move from a state of analysis paralysis to taking action. And what I asserted in the moment was- sometimes the word "action", and the idea of taking action can feel overwhelming, can feel too big, can feel like it's this thing that you need seven hours, or four hours of time to be able to move something forward. And I sort of said, off-the-cuff, that one thing I do is...and I actually use these, I use this wording on my to-do lists. Which is like, "What if I just nudge forward today, this particular thing?". So an example would be, on my to-do list: Nudge forward The Long and The Short Of It. As opposed to, like: Take action on The Long and The Short Of It. And so, for me, nudging forward might be as simple as sending you a message saying, "Which episode do you want to release next week?". Or it might be as simple as saying, "Let's record an episode tomorrow.". And it doesn't have to be that we spend six hours recording. So I'm interested in...it got me thinking about this distinction, and the words that we use related to action. But that make it, I guess, smaller. And make it more achievable. And make it, like, one small step. So that's what I'm vomiting right now, about nudging/action. What do you got?

Jen: Thanks for that visual. [laughter]

Pete: [laughter] That was terrible.

Jen: Well, I...I am envisioning what it looks like to nudge something, in my mind's eye. So, I imagine getting behind something and just sort of like giving it a gentle shove forward, as opposed to pulling it from the front. So I don't know what that means in the long run, but I like it. Just a little, a little shove in the right direction. The other thing that I like about a nudge is that it doesn't feel like it needs to be a leap. It doesn't even feel like it needs to be a step. It's sort of like a scoot.

Pete: Scoot! [laughter]

Jen: Oh, gosh. So I, I love that image. And it brings to mind...are you familiar with the book Atomic Habits by James Clear?

Pete: Yes, yes.

Jen: It's so good. And what it sounds like you're describing is just an atomic movement forward, as opposed to a giant leap for mankind. The thing is- to make progress on anything, you're always going to have to pass through the, the nudge length distance to get forward. And one of the things we talk about a lot in my Studio Workshop class is- progress forward is progress forward. Sometimes it looks like a giant leap. Sometimes it looks like a teeny, tiny baby step. But if it's moving forward, it's moving in the right direction.

Pete: Yeah. I think the idea that change happens, like, drip by drip is really important. That even those examples where it looks like a giant leap forward, I think if you unpacked it, it's probably a series of very, very small nudges that have created the conditions where it looks like a leap has occurred. And so I think about this a lot in terms of the way we change our own habits, but the way we create change in the work we're doing. And breaking it down to this idea of 1%...I can't remember if I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but essentially, because of compound interest, if you got 1% better at something every single day, in seventy-two days you would be twice as good at that thing as when you started. And so, for me, nudging something forward is the equivalent of like, "Can I get 1% better at this thing? Can I move this thing just 1% further forward the path of progression?". So that in seventy-two days time, I can look back and go, "Well, I'm twice as far along the path as I was when I started.". Rather than starting off and being like, "I need to get to 200% of where I am right now, immediately, in the next two days.". So I think this interesting idea of nudging, of 1%, of atomic habits, is just worth considering. And not putting so much pressure on ourselves to take these giant leaps forward.

Jen: Yes, I completely subscribe to the get 1% better every day. I couldn't have done that math in my head, so it's good to know that it's seventy-two days. But I really do subscribe to that. I believe in it wholeheartedly. In fact, the guy who owns the gym where I work out, that's one of the mantras: "Get 1% better every day.".

Pete: There you go.

Jen: Mark Fisher! Mark Fisher Fitness. I was having a conversation with someone today around something that feels very similar. And what she was saying is, "I feel like I know how to make large steps forward, when what I'm doing has a sense of purpose and intention. But I can't seem to take action when there's no intention or purpose. What should I do?". And...I see you scratching your noodle. I scratched my noodle as well and thought, "I'm not sure there's a problem with this.". That, I'm not sure that we should be taking action on things that don't feel like they have intention or purpose. But maybe the action is- identify the purpose, identify the intention. Acknowledge what you are hoping to happen as a consequence of having taken said action.

Pete: Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because in this workshop that I referenced at the start where we started talking about nudging and action, we actually did the activity that we talked about in Brainstorming (the brainstorming episode), which were the four questions of: "What do you love about this project? What annoys you about this project? What are your ideas? And what are the 10x ideas?". And one of the, our mutual clients...one thing she said was that going through that first process (writing down the things that you love about this project), reminded her of the intention. Reminded her that she's committed to doing things that she loves doing, and she wants to do, and do them with intention. And that actually taking time to write down what those things are that she loves, reminded her that she does have that intention behind it. She's not just doing something without thought, or passion, or love, or intent for that particular thing. So I think that idea of taking a moment to say, "What do I actually love about this project, or this thing, or this change," kind of can remind you of why it's worth committing to nudging it forward.

Jen: This just reminded me about what happened before you and I started recording. Which is- you and I are working on some things together right now that just needed a little baby nudge. And it felt so good to call out what the nudge might look like, and then nudge it. So we did some nudging around...something we'll announce next week. We did some nudging around getting our transcripts up to date. We did some nudging around getting a meeting on the calendar. I mean, these are, like, not difficult tasks. And honestly, in the moment, they don't feel like they have a lot of meaning.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: But when you...when you are aware of what the nudging adds up to, when you're working on a project that does feel like it has purpose and intention, you want to nudge it forward.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I think there's, there's so much richness to what you just said. So, a couple of things. One is, there's a famous Angel Investor...I think I've mentioned him on the podcast before, called Naval Ravikant. And he's a very, very, very interesting thinker, and a very smart guy. And he asserts that all good things in life come from compound interest. And that is- compound interest in the way that you consistently show up for your relationships, and the compound impact of that over time. The way that you consistently put money away, and the compound interest that that creates over time. The way that you show up for your business, and the compound interest that creates over time. And the way that you show up, say, for your nutrition, or for your health, or for your exercise regime. And that if you continue to bank them, the compound interest of that over time is, like, the secret sauce, the magic that moves everything towards the direction you want ahead. But that the unsexy, the hard thing to do is the nudge, in the moment. Because you're like, "Well, this feels...I'm just sending an email reminding someone to, you know, follow up on this particular thing that we're working on.". Or, "I'm just putting a time in the calendar for us to spend some more time thinking about this.". Like, it feels very small. It feels very unsexy, and unproductive. But that over time, if you add those up, they're the things that create the change. And I think using diet, and health, and fitness as a great example is the metaphor of, like: you don't just go to the gym and make a really huge leap forward, and all of a sudden you're super fit. Like, you have to chip away 1% at a time every single day, day after day after day. And then after seventy-two days, or after a year, you look back and you go, "Oh, I see the change that's occurred.". But it's this small nudge, every single day, that creates that.

Jen: I don't know if this is something worth bringing up in this moment, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Pete: Do it.

Jen: This is where my brain nudged me to...

Pete: Nudge.

Jen: When you were talking about exercise, the thing that came to mind is the notion of setbacks. And how, when you are going for the quick-fix, flash in the pan, grand leap forward, a setback can feel so enormous. But when you are living life in a more disciplined way, that whatever it is you're working toward is such an ingrained way of life that a setback doesn't mean that you're going to quit. And I'm thinking right now of my own...I used to be really into Bikram yoga. And I would go to Bikram yoga, like, every day.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: I loved it so much.

Pete: I did not know this.

Jen: Uh, yeah. I mean, it's been a long time. Once I, it's...do I even need to mention this? Once I had a child, spending the time it took to get to the studio, then ninety minutes, then cooling down, then getting home...it was just like, that was a pretty expensive workout (with babysitters). So, anyway. But I remember one day doing one of the poses and seeing, in the mirror, my foot come up over the back of my head. I was like...my foot came up over the back of my head, I was like, "Oh my god. Wow, this is the cumulative effect of doing this every day. Look at me, how limber I am. This is amazing.". And it, I did it again the next day, and the next day. And then on, like, day four I was like, "Wait, where's my foot? I can't get it up there anymore.". I had this setback. Where it was like, suddenly my body wasn't doing what I wanted to do. But because I knew I was coming back the next day to nudge it forward again (and then the day after that, and the day after that), it didn't cause the panic of having something taken away. It was just like, "Oh. Well, I got there because I practiced every day.". As opposed to, "It was just a lucky break. And now it's gone forever.".

Pete: Yeah, I think that idea of "practicing" as well, is such a useful word. I mean, I feel like this whole episode is about like...it's interesting to look at the words we use. So, rather than "take action on the podcast," it's like- "nudge forward the podcast". And that just creates a mental model that is easier to navigate through. And I think that the word that you use, "practice", is similar. Which is- if I'm, if I'm practicing leadership, for example, it's suggesting to me that there's no huge leap forward. There's no end game in mind. That everything is constantly in flow, constantly in flux, and constantly something that we're able to practice. And that the nudge is kind of the practice as well. So it's like, just this interesting idea of...a lot of the episodes we've spoken about, around: there's no such thing as perfect. There's no such thing as, like...well, as much as possible, can we unattach ourselves from outcomes? And can we show up in the moment to nudge things forward, and practice certain things? Practice heading towards mastery, without actually maybe ever getting there. If that makes sense.

Jen: Drew Wutke, who did our theme music for The Long and The Short Of It...

Pete: So good.

Jen: ...shout out to Drew Wutke. He talks about loosening your grip on things. That when you, when you hold on to something so tight, you can either strangle it, or it slips through your fingers. Whereas if you can loosen your grip, you can actually hold more. And I think what you're talking about with the nudging, it's like the difference between nudging something forward, and shoving it, or muscling it, or forcing it.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: That there's, there's a...it sounds like there's an ease around it.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And also a belief. There's a belief that you can nudge it forward. As opposed to, "It's too heavy. I can't possibly do this.". It's just a nudge. It's a simple little nudge. You don't have to muscle it. You don't have to strangle it. Just give it a gentle, loving shove.

Pete: Yeah, and I think what you suggest is interesting. Which is, there's always...there's probably always something you can do to nudge something forward. And depending on any number of factors, like- your mood, your priorities, the list of things you have to do that day, how much sleep you had the night before, a nudge is probably going to look very different on some days, versus other days. And that, that's okay. Some days you, a nudge forward might actually be: you do six hours of podcast recording. You record ten episodes, you feel awesome, you high-five, and you walk away going, "Wow. What an awesome nudge.". And other days, it might just be that you pop something in the calendar with Jen, so that you can do that recording session. That- nudges take many, many different forms, depending on any number of factors.

Jen: Yes, I love that. Because progress comes in all different forms. It might be a nudge, it might be a leap, it might be a moonwalk. And a lot of it has to do with your given circumstances in that moment- what else is surrounding the day? I love that. It seems to me that what you're suggesting is that even on a day where it's chaotic (whether that means time management is chaotic, or it's emotionally chaotic, or it's circumstantially chaotic), that there is a way to nudge something forward. Which might be as simple as writing yourself a note. Like, "Nudge this forward tomorrow.".

Pete: Exactly. Yeah. Or reminding yourself to practice patience, to one of the other episodes we spoke about. That could be, that could be considered nudging something forward, as well.

Jen: I love it. It's a, it is a commitment to progress.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Nudging in the pursuit of progress. That's the idea. And so I would ask our listeners, in the same way that I actually asked the people in the workshop, to pause for a moment. To take a minute to grab a pen and paper or your phone, and write it down on your phone- what is something you can nudge forward in the next ten minutes? And to challenge you to actually do that. Because it likely will take less than ten minutes. So if you're out there...Jen, maybe you can do this too. I'm challenging you to nudge something forward in the next ten minutes.

Jen: Well I guess that means I gotta wrap this up, because I've got some nudging to do. That is The Long and The Short Of It.