The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 64 - Live Q&A Part 1

Transcript:

Jen: Hello there, listeners. Before we get to this week's episode, Pete and I do a lot of noodling on how to help people move things forward. And it occurred to us that it might be useful to all of you if we put those noodles in one place. So we have decided to do that in a series that we're calling Bowl O' Noodles. And you can download the first Bowl O' Noodles, Unstuck Edition, at thelongandtheshortpodcast.com/noodles. There you'll find our favorite questions, things to noodle on when you're feeling stuck. Things to help you get unstuck. Thanks for listening, and we hope you enjoy this episode.

Jen: Hi Pete.

Pete: [at the same time] Hey Jen. [laughter] I'm used to, like, a delay. Like, some lag, so I wasn't aware...

Jen: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, it's nice to see you in flesh and blood here in New York City. [applause]

Pete: Thanks for having me, thanks for having me. You, and a couple of our closest friends.

Jen: That's right, that's right. We're here for a very special live-taping of the podcast. We've told the people in the audience to throw some questions our way. We have no idea what's about to happen. And...

Pete: We never do.

Jen: ...that's the way we like it!

Pete: We never do, yeah.

Jen: So you want to kick us off?

Pete: And this is The Long and The Short Of It. [applause]

Pete: Thanks for coming, everyone.

Jen: Yeah, thanks for being here. And thanks for tuning in, listeners. Alright, should we take...

Pete: Our first question?

Jen: Sure.

Pete: Let's do it.

Questioner #1: Hi, uh, I want to talk a little bit about goal setting, and managing goal setting. Um, and the feeling that...especially when you're, you're embarking on the beginning of affecting change in your own life, and in your career. Sometimes it feels like there are so many goals, and so many things you need to change or want to change, and ways to grow. And what advice can you give for managing that, so that it doesn't become overwhelming? And kind of, I think, time management, in terms of your goals. You know, how many things can you accomplish to move forward in a day?

Pete: I love this question. Can I go first? [laughter] Two things spring to mind immediately. One is: Is there a pattern in these goals? Is there actually a goal behind the goals that is one goal? Or two, as opposed to five or six? So, what's the goal behind the goal? There may be some overlap, in which case, great. The other is: Pick one. And there's this great metaphor by a guy called Derek Sivers that I've said a few times to probably a few people in this room, and maybe even on the podcast. And he wrote a blog called Don't be, Don't be a donkey. And essentially, the story goes- there is a donkey standing in a field. And on his left, he's got a trough of hay. And on his right, he's got a trough of water. And he's hungry, and he's thirsty. And he can't decide. And he's like, "I'm hungry. I'm thirsty. Do I eat? Do I drink? Do I eat? Do I drink?". Eventually, he collapses and dies of dehydration and starvation. And it's this silly story to say you can have both. But you've just got to pick one to start. That, as humans, often we're so short-sighted that we think we have to do everything all at once. But it's like, if you just extend the lens, medium- to long-term, what if you could have both? Or more than two? You just have to pick one to start with. So, there are my first two thoughts.

Jen: I think that's great. You know, I'm a...I'm a long-term planner.

Pete: And I'm not. [laughter]

Jen: So I've been, I've been thinking a lot about this because I'm not rigid at all about my plans. I just plan really far in the future, and then I adjust almost every day what I'm doing. So I've been thinking about this. So, what I would say to the Don't be a donkey, is that the donkey's goal should have been something like: Stay alive. [laughter] Because that would have been a much more, like, long-term vision than, "Do I want the water, or do I want the food?".

Pete: Oh, that's good.

Jen: And so this, this summer...uh, I do a summer program. Actually, some of the people who are in it are in this room. And we hit a point where people were really sort of, like, drowning in goals. And at that point, we just turn the goals into projects. Combine like with like, turn it into a project. It doesn't matter which one goes first, because it's all in service of the project. Now there are certain dependencies. Sometimes A needs to go before B, but often if you're choosing a lot of A's, the fact that you've just started with one of the A's moves that forward, and it gets you closer to realizing the project. And that has been a really useful reframe for a lot of people. [pause] Oh, I had one other thing I wanted to say, which I know we've talked about before, but we both use the Productivity Planner. Which is from a company called...

Pete: Intelligent Change.

Jen: They have a great newsletter, by the way. It's so good. It's so good. Anyway, the way the planner is set up, it's all based on, you know, the science of getting things done. So you pick one thing. So, what is the one thing that if you were to only do this one thing today, this day would be a success? And then the commitment you make is to not do anything else until you've done the thing. And I found it, at first, to be inducing the kind of reaction I just saw from you. Which is like, "Oh my gosh!". But it forces you to recognize that you do have priorities. And a lot of the things at the bottom of the list, if they don't get done nothing's going to happen. Like in a good way, nothing's going to happen. It's not going to harm anything.

Pete: One final thought you just prompted in me, which was a reminder I had on a sticky note for myself, way back when I was working in corporates and startups. And it was a sticky note that had the question, "Are you inventing work to avoid the important?". And I used to stare at that thing every single day. I think I stole it from The 4-Hour Workweek, maybe. And I used to stare at that every day. And the answer is almost always yes. I am always inventing work to avoid the important. And so as much as possible, can we not do that? And that's a practice.

Questioner #1: Very nice. That was mind-blowingly helpful.

Jen: That was a jaw-dropper, Shepherd.

Questioner #2: Hello. Um, okay, this is a great starting off point because I want to talk about the Dip. And I would love to hear what your strategies are for going through the Dip, and what it looks like on the other side.

Jen: Well, first, when you're doing things that are important to you, and that are hard, you are going to run into the Dip. So, right now, I'm in the process of building a digital course. (To be released in January 2020.) And I am preparing for the Dip. I felt a little poke of it yesterday. Where I was like, "Maybe I should move the date. Am I really going to be able to get this done in time?". And then...so today, I made a deal with myself to put my head down and work, and I got a lot of work done. I know that another Dip is going to be coming because it's a huge project. It's huge. So preparing myself ahead of time to have a generous and generative feedback loop, where I can actually go to Peter and say, "My work is making me question a lot of things right now. And I'm feeling like I want to quit. So help me.". The other thing is I spent a ton of time writing down, committing to paper, "Who's it for?". And anytime I feel like quitting, I read that. Because I know that if I don't show up with my project, the people who it's for aren't going to get what I'm making.

Pete: Such a good answer. So I would add that the time to think about a strategy for the Dip is not when you're in the Dip.

Jen: Correct. [laughter]

Pete: That the time to think about a strategy for the Dip is before you embark. That what we know to be true is in any creative endeavor, in any project, in any business we start, in any idea that we want to execute, there will be a Dip. It's going to happen. So the question becomes, to Jen's point, who's it for? What's it for? Can I get so clear that this is something that I want to do? Even though I know there's going to be a point where I'm going to want to feel like giving up. Because there is a difference between a project that's worth doing, which makes it worth going through the Dip, versus a project we think is worth doing, which all of a sudden we get halfway through and we hit the Dip, and we realize, "Oh, actually, this is not something I want to do.". So, I feel like the answer for so many of our questions always comes back to "what's it for" and "who's it for". But honestly, what's this project for? What's the change I seek to make? What am I going to do when it gets hard? And, who do I seek to serve? And, who can I add to my team? I think Jen's point around having someone to bounce off is really important. So that when Jen spirals, which she will at some point, I can literally say to her, "Do you think you might be in the Dip?". And like, immediately she would step back and go, "You might be right. Maybe I need to sleep on it.". The other thing I would say, just as a general observation on the Dip for myself, and having seen a lot of people in the Dip and go through the Dip, is there's a difference between fatigue and the Dip. And I think sometimes this gets lost. That sometimes we think, "Oh, I'm just so tired. I'm in the Dip.". And it's like, well, are you in the Dip? Or do you need a look at your sleep hygiene? (Which I've just learned is like an in-trend, an on-trend word.) Sleep hygiene. So there you go. Is it that I'm in the Dip, or is it that I need to look at my sleep hygiene? Is it that I ate like crap, and went out and had a hundred beers on the weekend? Or wines, or whatever you drink of choice is, and that's the reason I feel a little bit sluggish on a Monday? Like, there might be some other reasons. So, I think calling out the difference between the Dip and fatigue is my other thought.

Jen: I'm just laughing because you could probably drink a hundred beers and it wouldn't affect you. But I'm like half a beer, flat on the floor. Flat on the floor. [laughter]

Questioner #3: Hi. I know you two are both fans of Molly Beck's book Reach Out.

Jen: Yes!

Questioner #3: I've read it. And I've resisted hardcore. And I'm a Questioner, so I had to get curious about what that resistance was about. And I feel like I'm finally able to maybe half-bake articulate it. And that is, um, the fear of being audacious in an insular industry with repeat players, and people that I would potentially want to work with on multiple projects, not just a one-time reach out favor, or ask. And I'm curious on your thoughts of whether you think that's valid? Or is there something different to consider in insular industries when reaching out to people? Or whether this is just all part of my Imposter Syndrome?

Jen: Oh my gosh, I love this question.

Pete: Go. Take it.

Jen: I can't wait for you to listen back to this episode, because contained in your question is the content of your reach out. Which is that there are so many things that the person you're reaching out to is working on that in the moment that you're reaching out, there may be a project on the table, but you don't give a shit if it's this project or something else, because you see the change they're looking to make, and you're on board with it no matter what the project is. Like, I know as a creative person, I would love it if someone said that to me. If someone didn't say, "I see you're doing something I could be right for. Can I please have that?". And instead said, "I see what you're up to. I see the big picture. I want to contribute. If now's not the time, when it's the time I'm so there for you.". Like, that would be a breath of fresh air. So, I would encourage you to get really honest. And this is my general feedback when someone shows me a reach out that they've written, is to tell the truth. To tell more of the truth. So if reaching out to that person is awkward, you can actually say that. Like if it's a friend and you want to talk about something professional, you can say, "It's so awkward for me to reach out to you in this professional capacity, because we've never set any professional boundaries with each other. So let me call that out right at the top.". So that would be my advice, or at least something to noodle on.

Pete: Mmm. Good for a Questioner, things to noodle on. So I would only add to that: What if it were generous to send the reach out? And literally just leave it at that.

Questioner #4: Hi! I have a question about fear. Which I know you guys have covered before, and probably will continue to cover in all of your coachings because we're all fearful human beings. Um, you told a story, I believe, Jen, about...I think it was NASA that was shooting a man into space to break the sound barrier, if I'm remembering correctly. It stuck with me. And he was like all on board, they were spending millions of dollars, I believe, to train this guy and then one day he was just like, "I'm not doing it.". And they brought in someone really fancy...is that right?

Jen: Dr. Michael Gervais.

Questioner #4: There he is. Um, and I believe that they found out that the very first time when he was thinking through his day, of getting up and being shot into space, that he tracked it back to, like, putting the keys in the ignition, if I remember correctly? And that was the first moment he detected fear in his day. So for those of us who have situations in our lives that we encounter anxiety or fear, often, and say we do trace it back...okay, in my personal experience I had something important to do that day and I was at home, steaming my shirt to wear, and I started sweating. So it was like, "Okay, now I'm not sweating because it's hot. I'm sweating because of the fear of what I am about to do, or the situation I will be a part of.". Other than giving myself a script to follow in that situation, can we, can you chat through some tools we may, the listeners, we may apply to our lives in those situations? Once we identify those key moments of "I'm experiencing fear now", how do we train ourselves out of the fear?

Jen: Can I just provide the context for the story? Because I think it is, like, the best two hours you will ever spend listening to a podcast. He is referencing Dr. Michael Gervais' two-part podcast interview on the EntreLeadership Podcast. He has, Michael Gervais has his own podcast called Finding Mastery, which is incredible. Highly recommend. And he breaks down all this stuff on his podcast with, like, real high-achieving humans. The story is about a guy named Felix Baumgartner, who in collaboration with NASA and Red Bull (a likely duo), did what they called the Stratos jump, where he went to the edge of the stratosphere...I can't remember exactly, but it was something like 130,000 feet and jumped back to Earth. You can watch it on YouTube. It is unbelievable. So that, that's the context for the question.

Pete: So with that context, I would say for 98% of us, the risk isn't quite as high. [laughter] Because the first thing that comes to my mind hearing you, you know, recount your story is- what's the worst that could happen? Now, in Felix's case- death. Not great. But in most of our cases, it is so far away from death. And so, I would start with: What's the worst that can happen? It's a bit like a pre-mortem, I guess. And then I would think about this idea of, "Okay. If that happens, how might I get back to where I am today?". And I've done this myself. This is a Tim Ferriss Fear Setting exercise, he did a TED Talk on it. And what I always realize is- A: The worst case is not that bad. And B: The percentage likelihood of it happening is actually quite low. And C: It would actually be quite easy for me to get back to where I am. That the worst case is usually maybe like a little bit of, I don't know, reputational damage, or you made a fool yourself in front of someone, or you potentially said something that you shouldn't have said and you hurt someone in a certain way. But that if you're generous, and committed to showing up and proving that you were sorry, in that case, or recognizing you made a mistake and owning that, and then stepping into a more generous posture...I would say over time, you will get back to, essentially, where you were before. Which is hard for me to say to Felix, but I feel like for the other 98% of us, I think that that might work.

Jen: Yeah, what he said. And the other thing is that I think we could get better at being honest with ourself about the things we care about, so that we can do that kind of work. We're very good at pretending that things aren't important because that protects us from ever being hurt. But what it also does is prohibits us from doing any of this work that we're talking about. Because if I don't identify that something is important to me, or that I care about it, why would I do the pre-mortem? Why would I do my Whoop exercise (which maybe I should mention)? Or why would I do a Fear Setting exercise about something I'm just sort of nonchalant about? So if we can give ourselves permission to care and find something to be important, then we're more likely to do the work it takes to avoid finding out in the moment that you're afraid, because you will have already called that out.

Pete: Final thought...it's okay to be afraid.

Jen: Yes!

Pete: There is a myth perpetuated that we need to be happy and productive a hundred percent of the time. And it's just not true. Like, we will have down days. We will be scared some days. We will probably feel anxious other days. And some days we'll just be tired, and can't be bothered doing anything. And that all of that is okay. So, yes, there are tools, and practices, and ideas that we can use to dance with our imposter, or to use to help us through fear. But also, it's okay to feel these things.

Jen: Amen. Tune in next week for Part 2 of our Live Q&A. For now, that is The Long and The Short Of It.