The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 70 - Regrets

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. If you like interesting conversations with curious people in safe spaces, we would love for you to join The Long and The Short Of It Facebook Group. And...Pete knows the URL. So Pete, what's the URL?

Pete: [laughter] I had a feeling you were going to do that. The URL is facebook.com/groups/thelongandtheshortofit. Or you can just search for The Long and The Short Of It in your Facebook app. And we also thought while we're here, we would take a quick moment to remind you of our Box O' Goodies, which is a weekly email that Jen and I send out, and it contains a bunch of useful and interesting resources relevant to that week's episode. You can subscribe to that at our website, thelongandtheshortpodcast.com. And you can also view the archive of every single Box that we've put together and sent.

Jen: So if you like goodies, go grab those Goodies. And now, it's on to this week's episode!

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Peter.

Pete: What? What's happened?

Jen: I...I was, I was close to the edge of an emotional cliff earlier this week. I got myself off of it, but I thought it might be useful to spend an episode talking about regrets.

Pete: Ooh, that is juicy. Okay, regrets. Do you have them? What do they look like? And what happens when Jen Waldman is on the edge of an emotional cliff?

Jen: Let's hope we don't live to regret this decision.

Pete: [laughter] This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: What happened?

Jen: Okay. Here's, here's the deal. Earlier this week, I hosted a two-hour online workshop for my studio. And this was in the spirit of my theme for the year, which is: Leak the content. And so I did something I don't typically do, which is that I opened up the workshop to people from outside the studio, and anyone who wanted to come could come. It was a paid offering. It wasn't a free thing. So I had set a goal for myself that I was going to aim to have about twenty people there. It was a two-hour workshop. It wasn't like a, an massive event. I just wanted to sort of test the waters of "Leak the content". So I aimed for twenty people, and I got...

Pete: I have a feeling I know where this is going.

Jen: I got seventy-five.

Pete: [laughter] Of course you did. Of course you did, you're Jen Waldman.

Jen: So it turned out to be a wonderful success. It was a, an excellent experience. Everyone was highly engaged, and eager for more. And I left the workshop with...on a high, really. I was so excited. And then after the adrenaline and the excitement passed, I started to feel a sense of regret for having missed for so many years that I could have been doing this all along.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then I remembered what Drew Wutke (composer of The Long and The Short Of It theme music), said to me once upon a time, that he heard on a television show. Which was a character said, "I've allowed myself two regrets in this life, and this will not be one of them.". And I heard that echoing in my head and I thought, "Jen, you're not going to allow this to be a regret. This is a lesson. There is a learning here, and there's also so much opportunity.". So if you spend the time going, "what if", "if only" then you're going to get caught up in all this negative thinking, and not use this momentum to propel yourself forward. So I got off the edge of the regret cliff, but I thought, "I'm really lucky I had that saying from Drew to echo in my ears.". And I would love to just noodle on what those moments look like for you, for your clients, and what tools we have to avoid falling into the regret trap.

Pete: Yeah, this is meaty. This is meaty. My first question is...maybe this is not the right jumping off point, but let's do it. The quote that you mentioned, "I've allowed myself two regrets...". Is there some significance to the number two? Am I missing a punch line?

Jen: I don't know. No, you're not missing a punch line. It was, like a character said it in a TV show, and it struck him that regret is a choice.

Pete: Ooh, okay. Okay. Okay, now we're talking. So it's more around the fact that regret is a choice.

Jen: You get to decide how you label the things that you're thinking.

Pete: [pause] I'm just holding space for that wisdom to sink in, for me and everyone listening. You get to decide how you label things. I have some thoughts. Okay. So here's a noodle that came into my mind, which is I've really struggled with this notion that you hear people talk about, which is like, "No regrets! Regret nothing! You don't regret anything, you just learn!". And I'm like, I kind of understand that on face value. But I still, I struggle with it. Honestly. I struggle with the tension between: what is a, what is something that's a regret, versus having a growth mindset, and being like, "I could do that better.". So I don't know if maybe I just need to get clearer in my definition, but I often struggle with the tension of knowing things could always be better, and reflecting on, "Oh, I could have done that better. I could have done this. I could have changed that. That could have been interesting if I had to try that, as an experiment.". And like, at what point does that seep into, "I regretted doing it that way. I should do it this way.". And so like, I don't know, I feel like I have a complex relationship with regret because I'm not very good at saying, "I regret nothing.". Because I don't know if that's true.

Jen: Yeah. Have you noticed (sidebar) that when you quote other people's statements you do it in like a Worldwide Wrestling Federation voice?

Pete: You know what? Someone has called that out to me before. Someone has actually mentioned that to me before. And you're right, I do. For some reason, I put on this like macho wrestling voice. Why do I do that? Why do I do that?

Jen: It's so funny. I love it. Never change, never change. So what I think you called out that is important is to define, like, what does regret even mean? And what it sort of felt like to me when I was slipping toward it was that I was going to commit to a past focus. That I was going to commit to all the things that I could have, would have, should have done, and spend time thinking about what could have been, when what could have been cannot be because the past is the past. So regret, in that moment, felt like holding on to something that I have no control of right now, and can never have control of because it's over.

Pete: Hmm. Oof. That's good. It's a sunk cost. So this happened just recently, actually. I mentioned in the 2020 Episode that we recorded a little while back that I, at the end of each year, I send an email to a select group of people (that Brene Brown would call her Square Squad), and ask for feedback on what I did well, and what I could do better. This is interesting. And I actually framed it, which I didn't realize until someone gave me the feedback, is, "What should I do more of?". And, "What should I do less of?". And my dear friend, and brilliant human and changemaker Rebecca Channer shouted out, and called out to me. Essentially, she refused to answer the question of what "should" you do, because "should" suggests...it has like negative connotations, to your point. It suggests that something in the past has been wrong, or that you're doing something that you might regret, I guess. And so, I think she's right. And, and what I reframed it to is like, "What might I do better?". And this is...you and I have spoken about in the past, the power of framing questions is "how might you?", as opposed to "you, you should.". Or, "Why don't you?". It's like, "How might you?". Which is more of an invitation than "you should". So, calling myself out for using the word "should", and connecting that, to your point, of how that links to perhaps weighing on things as being regrets. That is fascinating to me. Huh.

Jen: I have never, until this moment, connected "should" language with the language of regret, but it is so true. And I feel like I've made this joke to you before..."Stop shoulding on me.".

Pete: [laughter] Yeah.

Jen: But that's the reason why!

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. And I've had a, I've had a...I think I've had a number of people call that out actually, for me. "Stop saying the word should," in the past. But I, like you, I've not really connected the fact that it could relate to living in a world of regret. Wow, interesting.

Jen: Mmm. So as I was thinking about this, this got me started down a rabbit hole around a concept called "counterfactual thinking". Are you familiar with that phrase?

Pete: No. Tell me more.

Jen: Okay. I'm going to read you the definition off of our most trusted resource, Wikipedia.

Pete: Oh dear. That's dangerous.

Jen: "Counterfactual thinking is a concept in psychology that involves the human tendency to create possible alternatives to life events that have already occurred, something that is contrary to what actually happened. Counterfactual thinking is, as it states, counter to the facts. These thoughts consist of the "what if", and the "if I had only", that occur when thinking of how things could have turned out differently. Counterfactual thoughts include things that in the present, now could never happen in reality because they solely pertain to events that have occurred in the past." And there's an incredible episode of the Hidden Brain, which is one of my favorite podcasts, about counterfactual thinking. And uh, it's worth listening to. There's another kind of thinking (and I can't remember if it is also labeled as counterfactual thinking), which is future-focused, which is about the "what if", the many ways things could happen moving forward. Similar to exercises that you and I do like the pre-mortem, or the Tim Ferriss Fear Setting exercise, and that kind of thinking is actually quite useful. So what I decided to do with my cliff moment, with the learnings, was try to project myself into the future, now knowing what I know. So instead of holding on to the past, I'm looking at all of the ways. Instead of "what if", or "if only", I'm going, to your point, "How might I create more opportunity like this? How might I?". And I've come up with like a million answers. So this shift away from regret and holding on to the past, and the shift pointing toward the future has been actually incredible.

Pete: Listeners can't see this, but I've been holding my head in my hands for the last...

Jen: I know, what's going on? Am I upsetting you? What's happening?

Pete: I just feel so called out. Not deliberately, obviously, because you didn't know this. Because I am...I did not know what counterfactual thinking was. But the description you gave is something I do all the time.

Jen: [gasps]

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Say more, say more.

Pete: Well, it's not that productive. I should confirm with you that it's not productive at all. So for example, is, I had a significant relationship in my life end. And in going through the process of that ending, what is interesting is the amount of time you can spend, one can spend, I found myself spending, thinking about, "What if you'd done this?". "What if you'd said that?" "You should have done this, and said that." And you essentially beat yourself up, which is incredibly unproductive. But I never knew there was like, this was a concept. I just thought it was like Pete's flaw, or Pete's way of processing. That that is, that's an unhelpful thing that I do to process. And I'm just trying to, like, get my head around hearing you describe it, and calling it out as a thing, whether that actually makes me feel better because it's a phenomenon...the psychological principle that I'm sure I'm not unique in experiencing. But also like, just noodling on how that has shaped my worldview of regret, as well. So this is a big aha moment for me, in this moment. Wow.

Jen: Yes. It turns out, Pete Shepherd...you, giant Australian, are human.

Pete: [laughter] I know. I'm so human, and so flawed. It's ridiculous. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Counterfactual thinking. It also reminded me, hearing you talk about it, like how you might use it productively in terms of like looking forward, reminds me of the idea that we've spoken about a bit around decisions and outcomes, and as much as possible separating the two. That a good decision doesn't lead to a good outcome, and yet so often what we can do as humans is judge our decisions based on the outcome. So a really simple example that I often think about is from Annie Duke's book, Thinking in Bets, where she talks about if you're playing poker, and you might have the 85% chance of winning a certain hand...you make the decision to go all in, because based on the information you have available in that moment, it's a good decision, like 85% chance. And you might lose the hand, so you get a really bad outcome. And so the tendency with humans would be, "That was a terrible decision," because of the outcome. But actually, it was a brilliant decision in the moment, one that most people would make. It's just that the outcome didn't quite go to plan. So, how that applies to I think what you're talking about is when we look back and do some counterfactual thinking, can we look back and say, "You know what? Based on who I was in that moment, with the information I had available to me, that decision was sound.". It might not have led to a great outcome, but in that moment I can pat myself on the back and say, "You made the decision that you thought was, quote, or air quote, 'accurate', or 'correct' or 'in best alignment with who you are' in the moment, and unattaching ourselves from what might happen as a result of that. Does that make sense?

Jen: Yes. You know what it sounds like you're describing to me, Pete?

Pete: What? I'm thrashing, clearly.

Jen: Empathy, for yourself.

Pete: Self-empathy. Yeah. Woah. Self compassion, self empathy. Yeah.

Jen: Woah. This has been like a lightbulb moment episode.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Which is pretty great.

Pete: Yeah. Okay. So tell me a little more, and the listeners, about how we might do as Jen Waldman does and reframe this, and use proactive counterfactual thinking, or forward thinking, proactive thinking, whatever you want to call it. How we can start to do that, like you?

Jen: I have two ideas that immediately come to mind. One is that...I say this at the studio all the time, I should say it on the podcast more. There's a difference between a theory and a practice. And when there are lessons learned in life and you don't take action on them, they remain a theory. So when you have one of those moments where you've learned something because of a mistake you made or something challenging you've encountered, and then you don't take action on it, you're not training yourself to respond in alignment with the lesson that you learned. So I want to encourage more action, more practical application of theory. So for myself, for example, with the learnings from this workshop that we held, I made a commitment to immediately start creating a list of all the other things that I want to offer in that format. So I'm making good on what I learned because I'm putting it into practice and building on it. And then the other thing that came to mind is a framework that I teach in my Shift class, my mindset shift class, which is the "if, then" framework. Which is both a framework for proactive thinking, and an antidote to reactive thinking. So the "if, then" framework is when you're using the future-focused version of what are all the things that can happen. If you encounter an obstacle in your imagined futures, you create a plan for what you're going to do if that happens. So, if I am feeling imposter syndrome, then I do the Imposter Two-Step, for example.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But when you have a learning moment, if you have contributed in some way to the outcome and you have control over your contributions, instead of reacting with regret, you can pro-act by creating the plan for the next time. So if, for example, it is...if I learn about an advancement I could make in my studio, then I make it. Or...let me give a different example that's not about this course situation. If I crack on my high note in an audition, then I simply say, "Let's go back to...", and pick it up at the top of that phrase again. Instead of what may have happened last time that you're regretting, which is a bad sound came out of your mouth and you went, "Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. It doesn't sound like that in the privacy of my own bedroom.".

Pete: Yeah. "If and then", I like it. The thing I also like about that, before we close, is...so there's a brilliant book by someone called Ray Dalio, who is a very, very successful hedgefund manager. He wrote a book called Principles, which is essentially the way he thinks about his life principles, his work principles. He came up with and shared, essentially, a series of principles which are effectively "if, then" statements, because his assertion is: emotion often gets in the way, in these moments. Which is so true. And so if you have a series of principles, or a process, in a way, that you can, like, follow (like "if, then"), that you've already codified, then when you hit the moment that you feel yourself getting emotional, you can refer to it. And from a past version of yourself when you weren't that caught up in the emotion, see how you might move forward. So, just wanted to share that resource as a useful way of thinking about regrets, and "if, then", as I pick up my brain and jaw off the floor.

Jen: So let's see if we can summarize what we've noodled on today.

Pete: My goodness.

Jen: That regret is simply shoulding on yourself. And instead, you can turn your gaze to the future, ask yourself, "How might I", or construct an "if, then" statement to keep yourself always moving forward rather than clinging to a past that is already over.

Pete: We also learned that Jen Waldman is very capable of calling Pete out, hard, during an episode of The Long and The Short Of It. Because counterfactual thinking, it turns out, is a psychological principle that I had no idea about.

Jen: I thought you were referring to the Worldwide Wrestling voice.

Pete: Also that.

Jen: But I'll take that call out, as well.

Pete: Also that. Also the Worldwide Wrestling voice. Yeah, I do. When you talk about like, "Crushing your fears.". I always do it like that. So on that note...

Jen: [in WWE voice] That is The Long and The Short Of It.