The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 71 - Working for Free

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. If you like interesting conversations with curious people in safe spaces, we would love for you to join The Long and The Short Of It Facebook Group. And...Pete knows the URL. So Pete, what's the URL?

Pete: [laughter] I had a feeling you were going to do that. The URL is facebook.com/groups/thelongandtheshortofit. Or you can just search for The Long and The Short Of It in your Facebook app. And we also thought while we're here, we would take a quick moment to remind you of our Box O' Goodies, which is a weekly email that Jen and I send out, and it contains a bunch of useful and interesting resources relevant to that week's episode. You can subscribe to that at our website, thelongandtheshortpodcast.com. And you can also view the archive of every single Box that we've put together and sent.

Jen: So if you like goodies, go grab those Goodies. And now, it's on to this week's episode!

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter. The frog came along for this episode, as well.

Pete: The frog is still here.

Jen: The frog is back.

Pete: The frog is back, everybody, by popular demand. So, you've joked recently, and before, about every once in a while we do an episode that starts with you saying, "You know what I hate when people say?".

Jen: [laughter] Yep.

Pete: And so I feel like I have a topic in mind that might potentially fit a version of that criteria. That you might have some...

Jen: Oh, I can't wait.

Pete: I feel like you'll have some thoughts worth sharing with the listeners. And the topic is: working for free.

Jen: [silence] Ooh.

Pete: I mean, the silence says it all.

Jen: Yeah. That is a tangled web. I would, I would really...I'd love to untangle that.

Pete: This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay, Jen, what do you think? What first comes to mind when I say the idea of working for free?

Jen: Well, if you had asked me this several years ago, I would have answered, "Hell no!". But today I've got a different answer.

Pete: Alright...

Jen: Which is, when are you picking up your paycheck for The Long and The Short Of It, Pete? Oh, there isn't one? I guess we're working for free, and we're happy to do it.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: I heard Seth Godin say something about working for free that completely transformed the way I thought about it, the way I was showing up, and what I was willing to say yes or no to. And it's so simple, but it's profound. "You can work for free when the work you're doing is a gift that you are giving to your community."

Pete: Mmm. Ooh. I like that. I like that. Yeah, 'cause I was thinking...I was thinking about this in a few different ways. And that I wonder if there is even such a thing as working for free. That...

Jen: Ha-ha-ha.

Pete: That we get paid in so many ways other than monetary that I wonder if there is even such a thing as working for free, at all. That we get paid in learnings. We get paid in experience. We can get paid in unknown opportunities. We could get paid in fulfillment because of the generosity that we're putting out there. That I think for almost any "job" (and I would love to be challenged on this), there is a form of payment that can occur that is not necessarily monetary. And so the question doesn't become, "Am I happy to work for free?". I think the question becomes something like, "What am I getting paid for this? And is that something I want? Is that payment something I want?". How do you feel about that?

Jen: Ooh. Well, I will challenge you.

Pete: Yes!

Jen: Working in a community of artists, they're often asked to do their work for free. They're often taken advantage of. And very often the argument is, "But you'll be paid in exposure. You'll get a free tape for your website.". Or, you know, "Important people will be in the audience.". And, um, those are the kinds of things I encourage people to say "hell no" to, because that feels like someone taking something from them. Which is why I like Seth's perspective on working for free when it's a gift to your community. So if...I'll just give you an example.

Pete: Please.

Jen: I, several years ago, came out of retirement from the stage for one night to do a concert for a group of artists who had been studying at the Studio, all of them from Paris. They'd flown over together, they had been studying at the Studio, and they were hosting an evening of new works, and asked me to sing in it. And to me, it was such a quick "hell yes", because I wanted to give them some sort of a gift for everything they'd been putting into our Studio community: all of this different perspective, the sense of camaraderie, the passion that they were able to reinstill into the people they were working with while they were here. So it was so easy for me to say, "hell yes". Several months ago, I was asked to sing in a concert at that same venue for someone who I hadn't met. But they felt like me being in the concert would help them to sell tickets. And what is hilarious is what they said to me was, "We would love for you to be in this, and we think it's a great opportunity for you to have exposure.". And I'm like...oh, and "...unfortunately, we can't pay you but we hope that the exposure will be enough," or something like that. And I was like, "I'm going to be helping you to sell your tickets (that people P.S. are paying for). So no, I'm not going to just show up and sing at your concert. You haven't told me anything about who it's for. You haven't told me anything about why you're doing it. The only thing I know is that money is exchanging hands and none of it is coming into my hands. But you want to use me to sell more tickets. So the answer is hell no.". So this idea of giving a gift to a community you care about, to a community you identify with, to a community you love really resonates with me when it comes to asking artists to work for free.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, it brings up a...I mean, I, I hear your rebuttal. And I appreciate it. And it brings up a couple of things. One is, who determines the answer to the question, "What am I being paid?"? Because the way I was thinking about it was, I get to determine what I'm getting paid in that scenario. And the...what you described was someone else telling you what you're getting paid. Which was, "You'll get exposure.". Or, "You'll get a video.". Or, "You'll get so and so.". And so, that is difficult to avoid hearing. But I wonder if in asking yourself the question "what am I being paid", you have a little reality check with yourself which is, "Well, people are telling me I'm getting paid exposure. But am I really getting paid exposure? No, I'm not. So what am I really getting paid here?".

Jen: Yeah. And the answer to that question for the, for the scenario I just posed was...hmm...nothing.

Pete: So you are getting paid nothing.

Jen: I'm paying with my time, my talent, my effort, my audience.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: But I'm not getting anything in return. So it's a, it's a no. And to your earlier point, I don't need to get money in return.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But I want to get a good feeling. I want to feel like I have just done something worth doing. And if I don't get that, then it's a no.

Pete: Yeah. And so I wonder then, in that sense, it's not even that you're working for free. It's actually that you're working for negative...like you're, you're less than free. Like, it's costing you.

Jen: Yes!

Pete: So...

Jen: Yes, yes, yes.

Pete: I feel like maybe this is a technicality, but my point of there's no such thing as working for free still stands. Because you're either getting paid in some way (monetary, experience, joy, fulfillment, gratitude, whatever), or you're paying because you're doing something you don't want to do (it's not fulfilling, it's not giving you any money). So I've, I don't know if I'm like making...I mean, I am making this up on the spot. But I don't know if this is a technicality, but I still wonder if the idea of working for free doesn't exist.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I think you just hit the nail on the head. You are either paying, or you're being paid. You're either giving, or someone is taking.

Pete: Yes. Yes. Yes. So, there you go. I made that up. That might be interesting to noodle on.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: Connecting dots. So the other thing you bring up (you actually used the words, which I think it was worth us talking about), was the idea of "hell yes" or "...no". Or, "hell yes" and "hell no". Or other people say, "F- yes" or "F- no".

Jen: That's typically what I say, is, "F- yes" or "Hell no".

Pete: Yeah. And so this has been written about by a number of people. I know Derek Sivers, who's a very, very sharp author and entrepreneur, he's talked about the idea of "hell yeah, or no". And the summary of it is essentially, when presented with an opportunity...so in this case, it might be an opportunity to do some work. The answer has to be either "hell yes"...as in, "I see so much value in doing this. Hell yeah, I'm in.". Otherwise, it's a no. That if you feel a little bit like, "Oh...maybe that could be interesting,", the answer is no. So it's either a, "Hell yes. I feel that, I see that, I want that.". Or it's, by default, a no. And so, I think you kind of referenced that. I just wanted to spell it out. Because I think it's a really powerful concept. And it's a difficult one, to be honest.

Jen: Yes, I use it as a filter. I really do. That if I don't feel in my gut that something is an "F- yes", then it has to become a "Hell no". Because the amount of energy and effort it's going to take to try to turn something that feels sort of lukewarm into something I might be passionate about...it's just too much of a heavy lift.

Pete: Hmm. So going back to the idea of free and getting paid, I'm curious for your thoughts on...we've kind of mentioned them in passing a little bit but like, outside of money exchanging hands, what are some ways you think about getting paid?

Jen: Well, let's take this podcast as an example. You know, we don't get paid to show up and record these episodes, monetarily. But we are paid with all sorts of other rewards. Like listeners writing in and saying, "I applied something you talked about and it has helped me to change my life.". Yeah, I'll...I would definitely keep showing up for more moments like that. But then there's also the indirect impact that having some free offering like the podcast has on our paid offerings. I mean, I know we both have met clients who started as listeners and wanted to engage on a more one-on-one basis. So one could argue that with the kinds of clients we are able to attract by sharing our ideas, we are indeed getting paid.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah. I think they're two very good examples. I would build on those and add the, the kind of intellectual payment, I guess. Which is, selfishly, for me to be able to have these conversations with you, is stretching my brain in a very proactive way. And as someone who is obsessed with learning, who has a growth mindset, and who wants to constantly challenge myself and try and be better, I get paid intellectually. Like the intellectual stimulation of having this conversation with you, is payment for me. And it's not monetary. And it's kind of esoteric. But I think about (I've said this to a few people), that even if no one was listening, I would still want to have these conversations with you. And in fact, prior to us having a podcast, we had conversations like this, which was stimulating and fulfilling to me. Which is kind of what prompted the podcast in the first place. So intellectually, I think there's like a payment in this too.

Jen: I agree. I agree with you. There is, there's something I feel like I need to go back to. As we were talking about requests being made of people to work for free...and it's something that I've noticed a pattern around, and I want to call it out so that people might be able to avoid falling into this trap which often leads to anger, resentment, and bitterness. Which is when an artist is asked to do their work for free, very often they're the only person, or group of people who are being asked to work for free. And so I do have a hard and fast rule for myself, which is if anyone involved in the project is getting paid with money, I am getting paid with money.

Pete: Yeah, everyone. Yeah.

Jen: And if that's not on the table...yeah, then forget it. I won't, I won't show up and, and do work if...if, for example, the musicians are getting paid, but the actors are not getting paid. Or the technical staff is being paid, but the onstage staff is not being paid. To me, that is like a major no, no. And the other thing I wanted to just share is that after hearing Seth Godin define the reason to work for free as being a gift to your community, I really reevaluated what we were doing at the Studio, and we started offering a lot more free programming. And what, what that looks like for us, like in the...let's see, we're recording this in the end of November. And so from this moment to the end of the year, we have seven free events going on at the Studio.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I'm deliriously happy about it, because what it has done has generated an incredibly tight-knit community of people who really know that they are a community whether or not they are involved in paid programming. That we as a studio community welcome them into the space, whether they're enrolled in a course or not. The fact that they showed up at some point to train with us means that they're still part of the community, and we still have things for them whether they can afford to be in class or not. And it has had quite the ripple effect on trust, camaraderie, friendship, safe space, all of that.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: And I really attribute it to the fact that we are offering people free programming. And I...so my intention is to keep doing it, and to try to do more of it because it truly is a gift to my community.

Pete: Hmm. I love that. I just want to pick up on one of the words you used, which was "trust". And I think this is so important, because something I've been noodling on recently is that progress moves at the speed of trust. And...

Jen: Ooh. Is that yours, or are you quoting someone? That's amazing.

Pete: I'm trying to think where I got that from. "Progress moves at the speed of trust," is something we talk about in altMBA. The team that I'm involved with of coaches in altMBA, we talk about this idea that progress moves at the speed of trust. And so, hearing you describe the way that you're generously serving your community as a way of building trust is also...you're being paid in the fact that you're creating progress on the macro-change that you wish to see in the world, or in your industry, or in your corner of the world. And so, I think it's worth thinking about payment in terms of that. That am I, am I being paid in the sense that I'm creating, and building, and fostering more trust? Because trust creates progress. And ultimately, in the change I seek to make, I want to make progress towards that. So I think about podcasts as a way to build trust with the listenership. I think about blogs as a way to build trust with a readership. And that all of the ways that we can create non-monetary ways to serve our community generously (to use the verbiage that Seth did and you did), are just ways to build trust, which is a way to build progress. And so we shouldn't sit around and lament the fact that we're doing things for free, because to my very first point, I don't think we are. I don't think there's such a thing as doing things for free. I think we're always being paid, or we're paying someone else. And so can we think about the idea of building trust to create progress as a way of working, and reimbursement?

Jen: I love it. And you know my Questioner self had to look up who said it.

Pete: Who was it?

Jen: It's Stephen Covey.

Pete: There you go.

Jen: Stephen Covey. He's got a lot of great books. But one is called...drumroll...The Speed of Trust.

Pete: I wish it was a Pete Shepherdism, but it definitely isn't. Thank you, Stephen. Okay. So what did we learn here today about working for free, Jen? I mean, we had a...we had perhaps our first disagreement. But then we ended up agreeing anyway.

Jen: Yes. And I think what we have landed on, which is really, really important, is that working for free is a myth.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: You're always either being paid, or paying. That you are either giving, or someone is taking from you. And we can do a better job of adopting a more self-aware perspective, so we can really see where we stand when someone asks us to work for free.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.