Episode 72 - Virtues
Transcript:
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Jen: So if you like goodies, go grab those Goodies. And now it's on to this week's episode.
Jen: Hello, Peter.
Pete: Hey, Jen.
Jen: Pe-ter. She-pherd.
Pete: Oh, here we go.
Jen: Ooh. I heard something on a podcast...the guest was a guy named David Brooks. And...
Pete: Brooks!
Jen: ...the topic was virtues.
Pete: Virtues. Okay.
Jen: Yes.
Pete: I feel like I don't know enough about virtues, so let's try and learn some more. This is The Long and The Short Of It.
Jen: David Brooks said that there are two types of virtues.
Pete: Okay...
Jen: I want...I'm pausing because I want to see your face when I say what it is.
Pete: I'm furiously scribbling notes.
Jen: I know. There are two kinds of virtues: resume virtues and eulogy virtues.
Pete: Wow. Listeners can't see my face, but my face is shocked. My mouth is open.
Jen: Yeah, you look like a shocked emoji.
Pete: Yeah, with my hands on my cheeks...the Home Alone emoji. Okay, okay. Okay. There are two types of virtues: resume virtues and eulogy virtues. I love where this is going. Tell me more, Jen Waldman. Tell me more.
Jen: Okay. So my mind started exploding because he was talking about the evolution of society and culture, and how at a certain point in the evolution of mankind, we only relied on eulogy virtues because we required trust in order to function as a society of people who were living together. And as we evolved, and financial systems...and now this is me paraphrasing, and putting my own spin on what he was saying.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: But as we evolved, and created systems, and structures, and classes of people, we no longer relied on our eulogy virtues to advance in society. We started relying on resume virtues. And this blew my mind because I think at the root of the change we (meaning you, and I, and our listeners) are trying to make in the world is to swing the pendulum back to eulogy virtues.
Pete: I am unwell. Yes. [laughter] Yes. To quote our friend Alie B., I am unwell. I agree. You've blown my mind. And I'm racking my brain right now for like a specific example of each, essentially, is what I'm trying to think. So maybe you can help me. Maybe we can go ping-pong. What's a...what's an example of a eulogy worthy virtue?
Jen: Okay. So let's, let's unpack this, shall we?
Pete: We shall.
Jen: Because I realized that we do some exercises at the studio that are based on this, but I didn't have this language for it until now. So a eulogy virtue would be: at the end of your life when they are lowering you six feet into the ground, what do you want people to say? So living your life by virtue of how you wish to be remembered. In other words, "This person made me feel seen.".
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: "This person built this community that I am a part of." "This person demonstrated unconditional love." Those are eulogy virtues. And what I, what I find to be really interesting...so the exercise that we do in one of my classes is I ask the artist to identify another artist whose work has been really meaningful and inspiring to them, and to essentially write a list of characteristics that describe this person. So...and then I ask them to read it to the group. So they'll say things like, "Well, this person's work is raw, and vulnerable, and messy, and makes me feel more human, and makes me feel connected to the people around me.". And then I ask them to describe themselves, and they will write down resume virtues. Things like, "I'm a really strong singer.". Or, "I have very clean pirouettes.".
Pete: Interesting.
Jen: Or, "I'm really good at Shakespeare.". Things like that.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: But to other people, they attribute these eulogy virtues. To themselves, resume virtues. And I'm so curious about that tendency, and how we might be able to be as generous with ourselves as we are with others.
Pete: Oh, there is just too much for me to even unpack here, Jen Waldman.
Jen: Okay. But try, please. I'm dying to hear your thoughts!
Pete: I'm trying. I'm trying. So hearing you describe the lowering into the casket, or lowering into the ground, sorry, metaphor, made me think what you were describing in terms of a eulogy virtue is essentially what I would think of as, like, legacy.
Jen: Yes.
Pete: What is your legacy? How did you make people feel when you were alive? And you used the word "generosity" with oneself. But I think generosity is a great example of a eulogy virtue. That the posture of generosity, being generous to others, is something that I imagine most people listening to this would want someone to say in their eulogy. Versus, "He was really great at scheduling meetings.". Or, "He was so organized.".
Jen: Right.
Pete: "He had great to-do list skills."
Jen: "He held a job title."
Pete: Exactly. "He had this particular status role in society." Which is so fascinating because so much of society, and so much of what motivates people within society is status, or titles, or things and commodities. And what you made me realize is the distinction between the two. One is about who you are, or were. The other is about what you do. And they are very, very different things, I think. And if I think about this idea of redefining leadership...and you spoke about the whole point of what we're trying to do, and the whole point of the podcast, and the listeners, is trying to tilt the pendulum back to eulogy virtues. Something like the program we talk about a lot, the altMBA, something that makes it so powerful, I think, is no one cares what you do. Everybody cares who you are. How do you show up?
Jen: Mmm.
Pete: What is your posture? What are you contributing to this group of people that are all trying to learn together? We don't care if you're the CEO of Twitter. We don't care if you're an executive at Nike. We just care who you are. And I think that "who" speaks a lot to this idea of eulogy virtues. So that is interesting,
Jen: Isn't it? And you know what it just made me think of...and I'm actually, like, quite shocked that I hadn't connected this dot until I just heard you say this. This is the difference between starting with "what" and starting with "why".
Pete: Mmm. Okay, can you say more about that?
Jen: Well, this is Simon Sinek's Golden Circle framework. People don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. What you do is simply proof of what you believe. And essentially what we're saying is that when you reduce yourself to resume virtues, when you are reducing yourself to a commodity, to a "what", you rob yourself of the opportunity to live on purpose, to live with intention.
Pete: Wow.
Jen: And I think it's important to note that that doesn't mean don't pursue things, don't go after things.
Pete: Totally.
Jen: But I do think it's interesting to project yourself into the future, and imagine the world without you. How will you be remembered? And I know I keep talking about Dr. Dolly Chugh because I'm completely obsessed with her book. But the title of her book is so powerful to me, "The Person You Mean To Be".
Pete: Ooh.
Jen: Not the person you want to be. Not the person you wish you were.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: But the person you mean to be. And to me, the person you mean to be is a person who displays eulogy virtues.
Pete: Yes. What an admirable posture to try and emulate. Huh, I love that. And I think it's...you're right. Like, let's call out the fact that it doesn't mean that we can't have a couple of nice things in our life. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have goals to attain certain things, I think that's important along the way. I just moved house, and I've been acquiring things left and right in order to help me function in a way that is supportive in the, in the environment that I want to live. So it's like, I'm still seeking certain things, the "whats". But the starting...the, the, the more broad overview, the posture, if you like, is the "why", is the eulogy virtues. Huh. So what to do with this mind melting aha moment?
Jen: Well, I, I guess there are a couple of ways you could look to apply this in your life. So one of the things is to ask yourself, "How would someone earn the way I wish to be remembered?".
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: So if I wish to be remembered as the kind of person who made people feel seen, how might I measure if I'm on the right path for that? And that might be something like, did I ask someone a question today and actually let them answer it?
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: You know, there are ways to measure our progress toward the person, the people we mean to be. So that's one idea, is to sort of back end into the behavior associated with the virtue.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: The, the other thing is to adopt a mindset that allows you to see the world as full of the possibility to apply eulogy virtues. Because part of the way...you know, I live in New York City. Talk about a city where people are trying to achieve things.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: And like, success is (while very relative), very, very much something people are hungry for in New York City. So how can you adopt a mindset that allows you to define what success really means? And to accept or release the noise from around you, in terms of what success might look like? A couple episodes ago (I think it was at the end of the aha episode), you were talking about the importance of environment...
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: ...and, you know, environment in order to, to create a space for yourself. Now there are environments that we get to build, like our home environments, but we also move through other people's environments all the time. And it's really easy to adopt someone else's mindset moving through that environment. So if I know I want to be the kind of person who assumes a generous posture, then maybe as I walk down a New York City street, maybe I'll smile at someone. Or maybe, like, I...maybe I will hold a door at Starbucks for someone.
Pete: Yes.
Jen: I mean, it could be little things that ultimately add up to the person you mean to be.
Pete: Yeah. Okay. This is good. I have a few ideas, as well. So I think one of the things that you just described, I would just frame it as a question. Which is like to literally ask yourself, "What does success look like for me?".
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: Like, what is your definition of success? Because my assertion is it varies at an individual level, but that often we don't pause to even think about it. We take on someone else's definition of success, like our parents, or our friends, or the people that we surround ourselves with. So, what does success look like to you? I think that's an interesting question to unpack. And then stealing from a couple of friends, I would share a couple of other questions. One is...I was recently interviewed on a podcast called The You Project by a very successful speaker and motivational coach in Australia, Craig Harper. And he asked me the question of, "In ten years time, if everything's going really well for Pete, what's happening? Like, what does that look like?".
Jen: Hmm.
Pete: And I really like that question, because it forces you to essentially define success, but in a slightly different...it's just a slightly different way of asking a similar question. What does success look like?
Jen: Mmm.
Pete: So, I would throw out that question. And then the other-
Jen: Can I pause for a second, and ask you...?
Pete: Yes. Please pause.
Jen: You just described him...you just described him as a very successful person. What makes him successful?
Pete: He's successful in that he...he models his own version of success, which is to do interesting work, to be always learning. He's just started a PhD. Like, his growth mindset is, I think, to him, success. "I'm always thinking, always learning, and I'm working on projects with people that are interesting to me." We actually...him and I share a similar version of success, in that respect. I talk about meaningful work with interesting people, and his version is the same. He is not chasing money. He previously had a very successful business and got out of it because he wasn't interested. Not chasing commodities, he's very much driven by purpose.
Jen: Mmm. So, eulogy virtues is what it sounds like to me.
Pete: Exactly. Exactly. And then the other, like, little activity, or idea that a friend of ours, Kirsty Stark (who is a changemaker in the film and TV industry in Australia), she shared with me recently, or she asked me the question essentially, of like...I was going through the process of making a decision. And she asked me, like, "What would eighty-year-old Pete say to thirty-year-old Pete in this moment?". And I went like super deep on that question. And was like literally picturing myself at eighty in a rocking chair, looking out the window with a nice glass of whiskey, or something. And I was like, "What would I say to Pete right now?". And that, to me, helped me like center myself around eulogy virtues as opposed to resume virtues. Because what I came up with was: all I want eighty-year-old Pete to think is, "I'm proud of how you showed up in that moment.".
Jen: Mmm.
Pete: Not, "I'm proud of you for getting that thing.". But, "I'm proud of the way you showed up, the posture that you brought.". So that was helpful. Finally, you mentioned like, holding the door open for someone. I think we have an episode that we'll do eventually on habits, and one of the habits that I'm tracking at the moment is every single day I try and do a random act of kindness.
Jen: Mmm.
Pete: And we've talked about good finding before, the idea is finding good in others for the sake of finding good in others. I don't want to, or need to get anything out of it other than, to me, that's a eulogy virtue. That if I can show up and be generous to other people randomly, I might be remembered as someone who showed up and contributed to people randomly. And that makes me feel good. That's a, that's a virtue that I seek to cultivate.
Jen: Can I ask a follow up question?
Pete: Yes.
Jen: That's really important to me?
Pete: Yes.
Jen: So, eighty-year-old Pete...does he live in New York City?
Pete: [laughter] ...Eighty-year-old-
Jen: You don't have to answer it.
Pete: No, I want to. Let's, let's do it. It was undefined in the moment when I was making the decision.
Jen: [sigh]
Pete: But I want to say eighty-year-old Pete has two homes: one in New York City, and one in Melbourne.
Jen: Yes, I love it.
Pete: And he chooses to go to whichever one he wants to, depending on what mood he's in. Because I'm sure by then there's, you know, the ability to transport in moments. So, yes.
Jen: Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa. That's crazy. Because you're probably right. There's going to be like some super quick way where it doesn't take twenty-four hours to get from Australia to New York.
Pete: Exactly.
Jen: But the other thing that is just so crazy...like, talk about having an aha moment. When you are eighty, I will probably be dead.
Pete: No!
Jen: Or, ninety-five.
Pete: Ninety-five. Ninety-five. I don't want to imagine a world where you don't exist.
Jen: Well, this is part of eulogy virtues...
Pete: Oh my gosh.
Jen: ...is, many of us are moving through our lives as if we're going to live forever and have all the time in the world, but we don't. Time, as Brene Brown says, is our most precious unrenewable resource. So I acknowledge that at some point, I'm not going to be here anymore. I'll be sad to have you living in New York City when you're eighty, with me possibly not in it. Although, who knows? Advancements in medicine, maybe I'll have a whiskey with you. But if I'm not here when you are, at eighty, I hope that my eulogy virtues will have spoken for themselves
Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.