The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 80 - Thick Skin

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. Peter and I are thinking of you always during this moment of change. And we have decided that we are going to continue releasing the episodes that we had recorded prior to the COVID-19 outbreak, because we believe that the ideas in them are still relevant to our collective future.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Now is still a time to learn. Now is still a time to noodle. Now is still a time to grow, as we adjust to this new normal. So we hope that you keep listening to these episodes, we hope they spark a little thought or an idea in you, and we want to remind you that if now you feel like you need community more than ever (which is definitely how I'm feeling, and I think definitely how Jen's feeling), come on over and join us at The Long and The Short Of It Facebook group. We will welcome you with open arms, and we would love to see you there.

Jen: Now, on to this week's episode.

Jen: Hello, Peter Shepherd.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer Waldman.

Jen: You know what drives me crazy? [laughter]

Pete: My favorite segment.

Jen: It really should be almost its own podcast.

Pete: I think so, I think so.

Jen: Oh my gosh, so funny. Well, I'll tell you what it is this week. What drives me crazy is when someone says, "You just need to have a thick skin.". Or, "You need to have a thicker skin.".

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: That drives me crazy because I think it is way off the mark.

Pete: Yeah, I think I can see why. And I think most of us have probably heard someone say that, so this feels worthy of a noodle, or worthy of an unpack. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay, Jen, what happened? Are you okay?

Jen: Yes, I'm fine. I've just been noodling on this a bit because something about this concept of having a thick skin really rubs me the wrong way. And because I work primarily with artists, they are constantly told that they need to develop a thicker skin, they have to be able to handle rejection. "You need a thick skin." And it has occurred to me that this is actually not only detrimental, but counter to the entire reason for being an artist.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: It is not to have the world bounce off of you but instead to let the world in, to interpret it somehow, and then to reflect it back out. So what I would love to noodle on with you is the idea that instead of developing a thick skin, what might be more useful to develop is inner strength.

Pete: Ooh, I can get down with that. I can get down with that. Okay, before we launch into what inner strength looks like, what do you think people mean to say...what are they trying to infer, just so we're on the same page, when they say, "You've got to develop a thick skin."? You mentioned, like, bouncing off. So I'm curious what you're thinking about when you think of, what's someone's intention when they're saying, "Jen, you've just got to develop a thicker skin."?

Jen: I don't believe the intention is universal.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Because in certain scenarios, what I think the person means to say is, "You are hearing constructive feedback as personal criticism.".

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: But in other scenarios, I believe what the person means is, "I am claiming carte blanche to hurl insults your way, and then make you feel ashamed for not being able to deal with it.".

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And everything in between.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Yeah. My original thought was something about not caring about others' opinions. But I think that there's a version of that, which maybe we'll get to, that is actually productive. But in actual fact, when most people are saying...in my experience, if someone's saying, "Get a thicker skin,", it's almost like a judgment on you that you're not thick skinned enough, or strong enough, or mentally sound enough to handle any piece of feedback or criticism that that person, usually that person, is willing to throw at you. And it actually, I mean, before I jump the gun, let's see where we go...but it does, it reminds me of the episode we did once upon a time around getting out of your head.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: When someone says, "Oh, you just got to get out of your head, Jen.". And just like offering no actual solution, or alternative, or way of processing feedback or things. So anyway, I'm jumping ahead.

Jen: No, I think you're, you're right on time. Because that is, in certain circumstances, that's exactly it. I mean, I'm privy to horror stories that would just melt your mind...

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: ...around what some people are willing to say to an artist when they put their work out there and ask for feedback. Just mean, nasty things, which when the feedback-giver sees the emotional response that their feedback has had, instead of following it up as, "Let me try saying that another way,", or, "I probably could put that in a way that is more effective and useful,", instead, will say something like, "See? You've got to develop a thicker skin. If you're going to survive this, you really need to develop a thicker skin.". Now, I would love to invite those people to come to a communications class or something, maybe on like how to give and receive feedback effectively. But knowing that we are going to encounter all kinds of people, what I'm most interested in unpacking is what the person on the receiving end can cultivate within themselves in order to be able to be more resilient.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Yes. I like that. So, taking ownership of the fact that we can control the things that we can control...

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: ...one of which is how we react to all different people, from all different walks of life.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Okay. Tell me more about Jen Waldman's aha moment relating to inner strength, because I know you've got one sitting there.

Jen: The best book I have read on this topic of inner resilience is Grit, by the extraordinary Angela Duckworth. The subtitle of the book is: The Power of Passion and Perseverance.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And I love this book so much. And one of the...one of the things she does in this book is asks, "How gritty are you?". Actually, I should probably find her definition of grit, so everybody knows what we're talking about.

Pete: Let's do it. I know you love a definition.

Jen: So in the introduction to the book, she's talking about highly accomplished people who are incredibly ambitious, and what she calls "dogged" in their pursuits.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So, "In some, no matter the domain, the highly successful had a kind of ferocious determination that played out in two ways. First, these exemplars were unusually resilient and hardworking. Second, they knew in a very, very deep way what it was they wanted. They not only had determination, they had direction. It was this combination of passion and perseverance that made high achievers special. In a word, they had grit.". And in the book, you can take a test to determine how gritty you are.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: Yeah, and where you can stand to improve.

Pete: I love it. I mean, I'm curious how gritty Jen Waldman is. Have you done the test?

Jen: I have done the test, and I don't want to give away too much because there's a bit of a spoiler alert in how the test is set up.

Pete: Alright, alright.

Jen: But what I will say is that you get two scores.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: One of my scores was lower than I would have hoped for it to be.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: And then just one other thing on Grit, and then I'll pass the mic along. One of the things I love in the world of personal development and contemporary sociology, psychology etc., is you can see the family tree of researchers.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So Grit could not exist, this book could not exist unless Carol Dweck had first written the book Mindset. So grit is: if you possess a growth mindset (something that is not a fixed score), when you get your grit score what it does is demonstrate to you where you can improve, and if you have a growth mindset the idea is you can get stronger, you can get grittier, you can get more resilient.

Pete: Mmm, you just gave me a light bulb moment.

Jen: Ooh, you know I love those.

Pete: Because I think we can overlay this with Seth Godin's The Dip, which we've recorded an episode on before. That, the 30,000 foot summary is, what we know when we take on any creative endeavor, any new project, any business, any change that we wish to see in the world, there will be a dip. In energy, in passion, in desire, in resources, in whatever, there will be a moment where you want to feel like giving up, essentially, because it requires hard emotional labor. It requires processing and dealing with a bunch of feedback and external stimuli when creating change. So Seth argues, and puts forward this idea that there will be a dip. And what we need to figure out before we commence any of these projects is whether the dip is something that we're going to be committed to overcoming, or whether we should quit while we're ahead. And hearing you describe grit, it just makes me think that grit is almost the way through the dip. So, that is interesting to me. That passion and perseverance, I think, were the words you use around grit. That's the, the mindset to take on (a gritty mindset) when experiencing the dip, perhaps.

Jen: I love that aha moment. I think you are absolutely spot on. Absolutely right. And when we hear feedback like, "You need to develop a thicker skin,", the question is, are you going to allow that particular...now, this might not be the question. One possible question is, are you positioned for that feedback to send you into a dip?

Pete: Mmm. Yes.

Jen: Or, is the idea that the dips in your creative process are there not because of outside forces, but because sometimes it gets hard to do the work? And then when you're down there in the dip, what skills do you possess...where is your grit to help you rise out the other side of the dip and come out even higher than when you went in? I don't know if that made any sense, but it made sense in my head.

Pete: Oof, you just made perfect sense. And just kind of blew my mind open to the fact that it's worth pausing to consider a dip through the lens of: is this a self-inflicted dip? Is this something that is as a result of me doing emotional labor, and doing work, and putting in effort? Or is this a perceived dip as a result of something someone else has said? Wow. Wow, wow, wow. That's interesting, Jen Waldman. That's interesting because we can overlay another thought leader and changemaker that we talk a lot about, which is Brene Brown, in thinking about the arena, in thinking about our square squad.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And considering: who are the people that we actually are comfortable listening to and getting feedback from? And are willing to listen to them when they tell us things that are hard to hear? Because my assertion would be probably no one in my square squad (and I would dare say, almost anyone in anyone's square squad) would say to you, "You need to get a thicker skin.".

Jen: [laughter] Wow, I hadn't thought about that, but you are 150% right. Because at least the people on my square squad...which, by the way, for the listeners who are like, "What is this 'square squad' idea?". This is the very, very small group of people whose opinions truly matter to you...and for me, I even add a little addendum, whose opinions influence my decision making.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Those people, at least on my square squad, are intentionally giving me the kind of feedback that requires resilience to hear.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.

Jen: Woah.

Pete: And you've opted into resilience from those people. Like, can you...yeah, in that way, is the reason we've developed resilience around that feedback because we've, yeah, we've opted into it? As opposed to unsolicited, unproductive, negative feedback, like, "Oh, just get a thicker skin.". You're like, really? I mean, sorry, who are you? And why are you saying that?

Jen: It's just so lazy. It's...that's such a lazy bit of feedback.

Pete: It is. It's the, it's the easy...it's not the hard part. It's the easy part, is just lazily saying, "Oh, just get a thicker skin.". Like you are passing the buck, and not taking ownership of the fact that you possibly need to reframe the way you delivered feedback.

Jen: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So I'm looking at everything we're talking about and realizing that if we backed up and looked at all the bullet points that have been brought up so far, what we're really doing is creating, like, a list of things that would help a person to enable their grit. Like, having a support system. Having a mechanism for processing feedback, whether the feedback is delivered well, or not.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Having a sense that you're working on something that matters to you, so that you can develop your passion, and so the dip is worth it. Are there other things that you would want to add to that?

Pete: I think the recognition that you called out, that for those of us (which I think is probably everyone listening to this podcast), committed having a growth mindset...so those of us committed to always improving, always seeking to create new and interesting change, we must seek and get comfortable with certain types of feedback from certain individuals. And acknowledge that part of that journey, part of that process that we cannot control is other people are going to give us their opinions, and feedback, and thoughts, and unproductive insights (like, "Get a thicker skin"), and that that's part of the process that we have to be expecting, almost, up front.

Jen: So, I had an experience this week that was a true test of my grit.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Where some secondhand feedback had been passed along to me, very well intentioned. And at first, I felt myself sort of like shrivel up and want to, I don't know, rage against it. But then I remembered the tool that I have, which is, first of all, square squad. So what did I do? I pinged you.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And said, "Excuse me, I'm walking home, I need you to jump on Zoom.". Which you did, thank you very much. And I sorted this unsolicited secondhand feedback into its appropriate bucket.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: So it turned out, if we review our Feedback episode (that there are three kinds of feedback: appreciation, coaching and evaluation), that this feedback was not appreciation. So, delete that option. It was not coaching, because the person is not someone I would ever take coaching nudges, advice, or ideas from. So, delete that. So what's left? Evaluation. So in that moment, when I was like, "Oh, I'm shriveling up,", I was like, "No, wait. When ranked against a set of criteria, this person doesn't prefer what I'm doing. Okay. Fine.".

Pete: Yeah. And I think the, the brilliantly mature thing in doing that, that you realize and recognize is it's not about changing that person's mind. Because it's their opinion, and in their head, they're right. So they're entitled to have their opinion that they believe to be true. And that's okay. (Even if I feverishly disagree with it, but that's a sidebar.)

Jen: But if you look at it from what the other option was...if you take the mindset of, "Well, I just have to have a thick skin about this,"...

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: ...then all I do is get angry, basically give a big f- you to the comment, don't do any of the work on myself to develop my inner strength, don't do any work on the skill that I have of being able to sort feedback. And instead, I rob myself of the opportunity to get better at the art of living.

Pete: Hmm. Wow. Okay, what's blowing my mind here is we might have just weaved and meshed together a collection of some of our favorite changemakers, and concepts that they talk about. So, I have a Venn diagram. We have a Venn diagram where I think this episode lives in the middle of, which is: Brene Brown and the arena, Seth Godin and the dip, Carol Dweck and her growth mindset, Angela Duckworth and grit, and we have Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen and Thanks for the Feedback. And at the intersection of all of these people and their amazing concepts, we have Pete and Jen recording this episode of this podcast. [laughter]

Jen: Ah, I love it so much. I love it so much. I would add one more to the Venn diagram.

Pete: Please, let's make it six.

Jen: Simon Sinek and the concept of starting with why.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: That when your why is clear, that passion you feel for the thing you're in pursuit of is unmistakable.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.