The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 86 - Zoom Life

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter Shepherd.

Pete: Hello, Jen Waldman.

Jen: It's nice to see you here on this Zoom call on my computer.

Pete: Oh, yeah. The same, you mean the same space that I always see you every week?

Jen: Yes. But this time I want to actually get a little meta, which I know you love to do.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: I would love to talk about being on Zoom.

Pete: Hmm. Yes. I mean, you and I both spend a considerable amount of time on Zoom, as does everyone in this current climate. So, I think it could be worth us talking about what it looks like to spend time on Zoom effectively and, perhaps, uneffectively.

Jen: Hmm. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, Peter.

Pete: Hmm?

Jen: You recently told me about something that I thought was so spectacular. So I would love for you to share with our listeners, if you don't mind.

Pete: Yeah?

Jen: How you've been hanging with your family during the global pandemic?

Pete: [laughter] Ah, such a good jumping off point. Okay. Yeah. So my brother prompted me a few months ago, actually, when this pandemic kind of kicked off to, to create a Zoom call for the family. And I was like, "Yeah, that's a cool idea. Why don't we do a Zoom call?". And to me, for context, like I've been facilitating and having conversations on Zoom for like three years, I think now. Now for my parents, they didn't even know what Zoom was. So like, we've got different ends of the spectrum coming in here. And so what I did was, I thought, "Ah. Okay, we'll create a Zoom. And I'll do it for an hour. And I'll just like, I'll suss out how the first little bit goes. And then like, give myself permission to create the agenda, if you like, on the fly. So the first, the first five minutes of the zoom call...so my family is a group of extroverts who love to talk over the top of each other. (Which is a running joke in the family, I'm sure they don't mind me saying.) And so, the first five minutes of our Zoom call was chaos. Like I'm talking pandemonium, everyone talking over the top of each other. I just sat back and kind of observed, and sort of had this out of body experience where I'm like, "I wonder if this is what it's like in-person. Where we're in the same room and no one's listening, everyone's just talking.". And like, my mom's asking my brother how he's going. But at the same time, my dad's asking my sister how she's going. I'm like, "This is just so stupid.". So it got to a point about five minutes in where I was like, "Alright, that's it.". And I muted everybody. And I just went like full Pete, the facilitator/coach on the situation. And I said, "What we're going to do for the next fifty-five minutes is I'm going to ask a question, and then each person is going to have an opportunity to answer the question.". (Which we'll get to in a second, I think, is like my philosophy for an effective Zoom call, which we can get to.) And so I started off by saying something like, "Okay, what's a book everyone's reading at the moment? When you're ready, one at a time, come off mute. And then you can nominate who gets to speak next.". And so I was like, "Dad, I want to start with you. What book are you reading?". And he comes off mute and he's like, "Oh, I'm reading this. Over to you, Kate.". Who's my sister, and blah, blah, blah. And so we went around. And then I was like, "Okay, cool. Next question. What's, what's been happening in your world in the last two weeks in isolation?". And they started to share. And then, "Okay, what about in the next few weeks?". So I did this like structure of: I ask a question, and then everyone gets an equal opportunity to respond.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And it was magical. It was magic. You could see, like, everyone on the screen being like, "Oh, this is an interesting way of communicating. Like we're listening to one another, and we have an equal opportunity to speak.". And at one point...my favorite moment, Jen, was my dad was speaking. So, I got mom and dad on separate tiles. My dad was speaking, and you could see my mom's mouth trying to talk over the top of him. But because she was on mute, no one could hear her. [laughter] And I was just like, "This is such a perfect moment of why the mute feature is so effective. Everyone's having an equal opportunity to speak.". And so, that was how that went. Now we've since, like, created that as a recurring standing meeting every week. I've introduced them to breakout rooms. I've like done a whole bunch of experiments on Zoom, but all through the lens of how I think about facilitation, with just the audience being my family this time. So, that's the context.

Jen: I love it so much. Okay, so let's back up for a second. You mentioned that you have a Zoom philosophy.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: So, what's the philosophy?

Pete: Okay. So this was actually a prompt a couple of folks in our Facebook group asked about, which was like, "What's an effective Zoom look like?". And it was Florence and Dave. So, shout out Florence and Dave, thank you for the question. And my response to them (which was sort of what I said to you earlier), was my Zoom philosophy is...I think about it as four words, but it's probably five words if you include the "and" or the ampersand. And that is: to ask questions and to hold space. So: ask questions, hold space. To me, I like to simplify things. And that is the simplest way that I can describe a really, really effective Zoom call. Which is the host asks questions, and then holds space for people to respond. So that's like my 30,000 foot Pete's summary of an effective Zoom call. How do you feel about that?

Jen: I feel great about it. And I also feel like I've heard you say those four words in relationship to the word "empathy".

Pete: Yeah, that's true.

Jen: So, just calling that out. Okay, so let me ask you a couple of questions about this, Pete. Because-

Pete: Please.

Jen: -your family is a fairly contained group, a small group. Let's talk for a second about meetings which might have larger groups. Like I was telling you that this morning I taught a class for two hundred people. And we followed your philosophy. And everybody did have a chance to speak. But it required very specific directions from me to them before they went into breakout rooms. So, could you just talk about what that looks like for you when it's a pretty large group?

Pete: Yeah, I love this. So I think the important point that you made, which I don't think I touched on, which is everyone has an opportunity to speak. And I think that's such an important thing to call out for an effective Zoom. It doesn't mean some people might not be comfortable speaking, it doesn't mean they have to, but they have the opportunity to speak. I think that's such a really, really key part of an effective Zoom. And so, to your point, in thinking about that, we also need to recognize that size matters when it comes to Zoom. So if it's five people, like my family, it's really easy to to go around the room and everyone share. If it's two hundred, it's a different story.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: You're going to be there for a long, long time. So..

Jen: Yeah. Or, "You each get half a word.".

Pete: Exactly. "In one word or less...less?" So there are some, essentially, tactical things that I think are worth calling out. One of which (I know you do this really well) is like, you use the chat.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So in Zoom, there's a chat feature. In altMBA world, we call this a chat waterfall. Where you ask a question and get everyone to respond in chat. And the answers come through so quickly that it kind of looks like a waterfall. So that is a way to get all of the voices in the room heard. And then the other way, I think, which is really powerful...which I know you do as well, so I'd be keen for your thoughts, is to use the breakout feature.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And in certain, in certain corners of the digital world, people have joked that I'm like, Pete "Breakout" Shepherd because I just...I'm obsessed with breakouts. Because they just allow for immediate connection, and multiple conversations to kind of happen at once in a small, confined setting. So you can literally take a group of two hundred and say, "Okay, break out into groups of four.". Click a button, and they all go into groups of four. And you...what I would suggest (and I know you did this probably this morning so feel free to hop in) is you ask them a question, and get them to take a moment to talk about that question in their breakout. Is that kind of how you approached it?

Jen: Yes. So, making sure that people are very clear on what the question is. And for me, I find it helpful to say how long the overall time is, and then what that breaks down in to.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: I know it's obvious that if it's groups of four and you have four minutes, you each get one minute. But saying it out loud, just doubling down on it does help. And I even go one step further, which is while they're in breakouts, I send a broadcast every minute, letting them know that it's time to move on. That way, they don't feel bad about interrupting each other, because I'm the one interrupting them.

Pete: Mmm. Nice. I like that. I mean, I think the breakout question, if I go back a step, is worth calling out and especially in large groups.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So you and I, for example, facilitated as part of Seth Godin's Real Skills conference, we facilitated a room with almost two hundred people just last week. Which was a bunch of fun.

Jen: Yeah, we did. It was fun.

Pete: And the structure of that two hours, I think, is such a great structure that I've used time and time again. So it's similar to, it's very much following the philosophy of ask questions and hold space. But the structure is...knowing that people don't want to sit there and listen to one person talk for forty-five minutes, like this is not a lecture. We want to connect. We want it to be interactive. We want people to come off mute. We want people to use chat. We want people to talk. So the overall structure was really: here's a riff about a particular topic or idea, and that was usually about five minutes. And then: here's a question to build off that riff. And then you leave...well for us, we create a breakout. Sometimes, we use chat. But you leave space for them to respond to that.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Then they might come back, or we might go, "Okay, cool. Let's close that riff off. Here's another riff.". And you might ask a question about that riff. And then you give people the time to respond, and then you come back. And that that structure, you could just repeat that two or three or four times, depending on the time, is actually a really effective structure for a great Zoom workshop conference meeting, I think.

Jen: Agreed. I mean, this is how I facilitate my classes that I'm currently teaching. And this is basically the structure you and I use for our Learning Labs. It's very, very effective, very effective.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Okay. I want to bring another idea into this conversation, which is culture.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: So within organizations, companies, groups, there is a shared culture. And I've spent a lot of time in my role as someone who goes into these companies talking about company culture, and how to create a healthier company culture, and remove toxicity from company culture.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Well, those behaviors, those ideas translate into Zoom culture as well. And one of the things I know I've been mindful of as we've taken the studio online is creating a Zoom culture that feels like it's in alignment with our values as a studio, and that has a sense of boundaries around it. Like, what is okay and what's not okay. Clear is kind, right?

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Unclear is unkind. So, I would love to hear your take on this. And I'll just share one of the things that we've done is...I have disabled the private messaging feature between participants. So participants can private message the host or the co-hosts, and co-hosts and hosts can message anyone. But the participants cannot message each other. And I made this decision because I had been on Zoom calls in other people's companies where that chat feature had not been disabled. And there was this crazy side-conversation culture going on that was distracting and, frankly, disrespectful to the person who was speaking.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah.

Jen: So, we have disabled that. I would just love to hear your thoughts on it.

Pete: I think it's such a, such a brilliant example of how you might create rules within Zoom to facilitate, and create, and cultivate the culture that you seek to create and cultivate.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So I mean, examples that I can think of in the, in the communities that I'm a part of are: have your video on.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So in certain organizations, contexts, you might be in a Zoom call and like half of the participants don't have their video on. And I think there's something in having everyone have their video on. And I know I've mentioned this to you before, but if everyone has their video on, and if everyone is in gallery view (which is like The Brady Bunch view), there's this interesting dynamic where everyone's taking up the same amount of space. And there's no one physically domineering in terms of like, their height, or their just size as a human being compared to someone who might be short. And that, as well as like status roles in terms of organizational hierarchy and titles, just creates a really interesting leveler, where we're all here taking up the same amount of space. And we all just have like a little face on the screen, which I think is just...I haven't quite figured out how and why, but I think it just does something to the meeting room.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So, I think that's an example.

Jen: So I noticed at the, toward the end of our first month of our online classes, that in my Impulse Training class which meets twice a week...when the class would start, as the week's went on, more and more people started the class with their camera off.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And so in the final week, we started this thing that I'm calling the Sawubona moment where...this is a word I learned from Seth Godin, which is this Zulu greeting: "I am here." In the Box O' Goodies, I'll post the video that Seth shared. But essentially, when you say "Sawubona", it means, "I see you.". And then the response is, "I am here." And so now at the top of class, I send people out for their Sawubona moment, which they have to turn their camera on for. And then when they come back to me, the cameras are on. It's nice.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: It's a nice little quick fix. The other cultural thing that we noticed on, in the studio as we moved online, was paying attention to chat usage. Because one of the ways in a large group people feel seen is they enter something in the chat. So, I did not want to disable the public-facing chat. But I started to get some feedback from some participants that the chat is just too frequent.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And so, what we do now is let people know that we're trying to create a culture we can all be proud of in the way we're showing up on Zoom. And so what that means for us is that we only enter something into the chat if we feel that is for everybody's benefit, or in a moment when the person who's facilitating the class says, "Now everybody, go ahead and enter that into the chat.". So, there are...the boundaries, and expectations, and clarity around that really, I think, is helpful in creating something that does not erupt into chaos.

Pete: Yeah. I think the interesting thing that I'm connecting in hearing you say that is just the empathy, and the meeting of where people are at...

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: ...knowing that everyone is at a slightly different place with Zoom, and the need, and desire, and want to use chat. So, I think about this a lot. And I mentioned earlier that I think a really effective Zoom call is one where everyone has an opportunity to speak. And, that can be harder than it sounds. Because we all know those over-enthusiastic (bless them) folks who love to jump off mute for the very first time, they always want to be the first person off mute. And maybe they hop off mute more than once to answer the same question two, three, four times. And so, there are two concepts I think about a lot. They're kind of tactics, but I just wanted to share them because I think they're really effective. One is to literally ask, or to say, "For those that haven't had a chance to come off mute yet...", and then ask the question again. And so, just to call out that I'm seeking to get input from those who haven't contributed, I think, is one way. And then the one...which is a little bit more philosophical, I guess. But it's this idea that my friend Dean Bardouka (again, who I mentioned recently) introduced me to. And it's this concept of: Move Up, Move Up. And I'll dig up the where this originally came from, and put it in the Box O' Goodies as well. So we share this quite often in a call, when Dean and I are facilitating, which is, "We want to introduce you to the concept of Move Up, Move Up. Now what that means is, if you are usually someone who speaks first and speaks often, we want you to move up into a position of listening. And if you are someone who usually likes to sit back and just kind of listen and not necessarily have input, we would love you to move up into a position of sharing. And so, both of those are stretches. Both of those are moving up into something that we might not be comfortable doing, based on our default. And so like, let's step into that together.".

Jen: Mmm. I love that. I'm going to try that. Thank you for that tip.

Pete: 'Course. Thank you, Dean.

Jen: I'll tell you one of the things that I like to do, is ask people to use the digital hand-raising feature.

Pete: Oh, yeah.

Jen: Because I know that very often the first person to speak is going to be someone who identifies as male. And so what this does, for me as a facilitator, is it allows me to make sure that we have as many diverse voices represented as possible in the question-askers. Otherwise it can be a very homogenized group.

Pete: Mmm. Such a good call out. So I think as we like come to wrap this up, and if I go back to the philosophy of asking questions and holding space, I feel compelled to share a couple of things around that, as the facilitator.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So, a couple of postures and noodles that I always try and keep in mind. One is: it's not about me. It's not about you, the facilitator. It is about everyone else on the call, and it's not about you, the facilitator. And so the interesting posture shift to get used to, I think, is that 90% of the talking will come from the people in the room, probably. Or, 80%. And 10% to 20% will be from you, the facilitator, if you're doing a certain type of Zoom call in an effective way, I believe. So, I think of that percentage a lot: 80/20. And just to share, and worth calling out, like, I have facilitated one-hour conversations where I asked three questions. Like, all I did was ask three questions. And I've had a story in my head of like, "Wow, you're really not doing anything here. All you're doing is asking a couple of questions. Like, you're an imposter. You know? You're not contributing."

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And have had messages and feedback off the back of those workshops, being like, "That was amazing. Thank you so much for creating that space.". And so just to say that out loud as a reminder, that your role as the facilitator is to create space. Your role as a leader is to create the conditions for others to choose new actions, for others to contribute.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.