The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 88 - Champions

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I've been thinking a lot about a concept that I share with my clients from time to time, because I've recently had an aha moment about it.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And the concept is something I call "The Circle of Champions".

Pete: Ah.

Jen: That circle of people in your life who you believe would help to champion you, your work, or the cause you believe in.

Pete: Alright. So, we've got The Circle of Champions. Not to be confused with the Brene Brown Square Squad, I'm assuming. It looks like we're going shape-shifting. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, so let's just start with: what is a champion?

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So when I, when I think about someone who I would be championing, I sometimes will speak very hyperbolically and say something like, "I would throw myself in front of a bus for that person. Like, I believe in what they're doing so much, I would sacrifice something in order to make sure that they are seen.".

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And the reason I like the idea of The Circle of Champions is, I think of your Circle of Champions like one of the rings in, like, the five interlocking Olympic rings.

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: And that, if you imagine that circle overlapping with another circle, it's at that connection point where you've now doubled the size of the circle.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And then at the next connection point, now we've got these three circles touching. And then four, and five, and it could go on infinitely. And it reminds me a bit of the episode we did on communities and networks, that being able to identify who is in your Circle of Champions, uh, and knowing that each one of them has their own Circle of Champions...just think about the exponential change that we could make if we really all work together in that way.

Pete: Ooh. What you just said was not necessarily what I was going to say first, but I'm going to build off this because that last little, like, sentence reminds me of that adage that I've heard, which was along the lines of like: If I give you $1, and you give me $1, we both have $1. But if I give you an idea, and you give me an idea, we both have two ideas. It's not a zero-sum game. It's additive, I guess, is the point. And what you just described, I think, was essentially the same thing, right? That these are generative and additive, to the point of almost no return.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Cool.

Jen: So, the reason I wanted to bring it up is because I had a recent aha moment that made me start...I don't know if rethinking is the right word, but just thinking again, about what it means to be a champion to someone. So, I just finished reading this book called Imagine It Forward by Beth Comstock.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And in it, she talks about the need to know the difference between a champion and a mentor.

Pete: Mmm, tell me more.

Jen: And so I've been thinking about my own relationship with my own clients, some of whom I champion, some of whom I mentor, and some for whom I do both.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And if there is such thing as a Circle of Champions...what would it be, a Megaplex of Mentors? [laughter] Like, what does the mentor version look like? And what is the difference between a champion, and a mentor?

Pete: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. I feel like I want to start there. So it's funny, when I hear you say mentor, I also think of coach, even though they're two very different things. So maybe before I define how I see that difference, let's talk about the difference between a mentor and a champion. How do you see those two things being different? What are they both for, I guess?

Jen: Okay. So, I think a mentor is someone who has trod a path that you might be seeking to tread yourself.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: A mentor is someone who possesses requisite knowledge in something that you're trying to learn, or get better at. A champion, however, might not possess any requisite knowledge, but they might possess some leverage to help you bring your work into the spotlight. So, sometimes they could be both. But I, I do think that they're different. And I'm thinking about with my own clients...the clients who I mentor, I think about that as a more nurturing, internal relationship where we're not focused on pushing the work out. We're really focusing on how to help that client be the best that they could possibly be. And when I'm championing someone, it feels like they are (for lack of a better way to describe it), like they are ripe.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: They are ready to be taken to the market, and pushed out for all to see. And I want to be able to shine a spotlight on that client and say, like, "Notice this person. This person is here. This person is a changemaker. This person is going to have an impact.".

Pete: So, to...just to perhaps get you to say exactly what you just said in a different way, for my own clarity. [laughter] Is the champ-...so when championing someone, it's almost that they're already doing the work. You're just trying to, seeking to highlight that.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Champion that work.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Gotcha. I love that distinction. Versus a mentor, which is: let me help you think about how to do the work. Or, let me show you how I did the work and you might take those lessons and run with them.

Jen: And then I just have one other thing to add, which one of my clients actually brought up to me last week, is if someone's going to champion you, they actually have to know you, and be willing to endorse you, essentially.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But you can also have mentors (I think we've talked about this before, somewhere) that you've never met. [laughter]

Pete: Totally.

Jen: Because in this digital age, with so many wonderful people sharing their ideas so freely on all of these platforms, you could be learning so much from someone and never have even met them.

Pete: Yeah, totally. I think of the changemakers that we reference so much on this podcast, like Brene Brown, for example. We've not met her, but I would say that she's...I'd like to think of her as one of our mentors, Jen, is what I'm saying.

Jen: I agree with you. [laughter] Thanks, mentor Brene.

Pete: Thanks, Brene. Because we read her books, we listen to her podcast, her thoughts influence our work. And, to me, that is the role of a great mentor. I also just wanted to ask one final question about...well, maybe not one final. One more question about this, as it relates to champions in particular, but also as it relates to mentors is...I was just thinking, what role does status play, if any, in this? In terms of, does a champion have to be someone who has a perceived higher status in this particular industry?

Jen: Ooh.

Pete: Like, I think about a mentor. We talked about: they've trod the path, they've got the requisite knowledge. So one might assert that just because of that, perhaps they have certain status in that circle, or in that work, or in that field. And maybe, you know, even just in the Brene example we just gave, she has status in the field of changemaking authorship and research. And so that's why, I think, we like to look to her as a mentor. I wonder if, like, can you have a champion who's your family? Your friend? That doesn't necessarily have to be someone with status? I guess, is the question.

Jen: Yeah. I hadn't thought about this through the lens of status. So that's, I have to let that slosh around in my brain for a second. A mentor has to have experience and knowledge. And a champion could simply bring connection.

Pete: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Jen: So I know in my own career, I have (especially when I was starting out), there were people who I knew from childhood who had absolutely no experience in the industry I was seeking to go into, but who knew someone who knew someone, and they were willing to champion me because they knew me and believed in me. That wasn't necessarily about status. It was about relationships and connections. But for someone to mentor me, to take me under their wing...I also was very fortunate around that same time to have a mentor who had been in the theatre industry for forty-five years at that point, and had so much knowledge he wanted to share. So I had champions who knew nothing about my field, but knew people who worked in the field. And then, a mentor with very, very deep roots in the industry that I was looking to work in.

Pete: I love this. I love this idea that a champion is a connector. Because I think...I'm just having this sort of aha moment in my head right now. Which is, I think to a degree, I'd probably included in the classification of a champion...I'd included what I'm now realizing is probably a supporter, or an encourager. You know? Which is like providing affirmation, and maybe positive feedback that supports you in the work that you're doing. In my head, I was like, "Yeah, that's a champion.". But I think what we're saying, and hearing you just describe that is maybe that is just a supporter, and...not just a supporter. But that is a supporter, and we all need those, and we love those, and we want those in our lives. And maybe the difference is that where it becomes a champion is when they start to connect for you. I like that distinction.

Jen: Yeah. And I think, when I hear you talking about a supporter, it reminds me of an episode we did called The Arena.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Where we talked about the difference between the balcony people, the arena people, and the basement people. So, the balcony people would be the supporters.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Those cheering you on, because they want you to do what you want to do. They want you to do well.

Pete: We love supporters. Yeah. Okay. And then I promised (a little while back), I promised that I was going to add coaching into this conversation.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Because I think it, I think it relates and it certainly relates to my work, and your world, both of our worlds. In terms of like, I've been thinking a lot about the difference between a mentor and a coach. And I'm often asked about it, actually. "What is the difference between a mentor and coach? And are you a mentor, or are you a coach?" And I think that you so beautifully described what a mentor is, which I would just, like, plus one. Which is someone who has trod the path, has the requisite knowledge, and is essentially passing that knowledge forward to someone else that they believe they could help with said knowledge. Versus a coach, which, in some ways is the opposite. Which is, you don't necessarily have to have trod the path. You might not even have the requisite knowledge. You might have a pretty solid understanding of a particular field, or industry that may be helpful. But really, the coach's posture is, "I'll help you figure it out, because you probably know your industry better than me. And I'm going to ask you questions and hold space. So that together, we can move forward. But really, you can move forward based on the ideas in your head.". So it's like creating the conditions for the person on the other end to figure it out themself, in a way. As opposed to, "Let me tell you what you need to do.". That, I think, is the distinction between coaching and mentoring.

Jen: Yeah. I think a coach is someone who helps you optimize the things you already possess. The knowledge, the skills that you already possess.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Helps you to use them to the absolute best of your ability. Whereas a mentor might not even know what you know (might not even know what you're working with), but they know what you want to learn.

Pete: Hmm. Okay. Let me ask you this then, Jen Waldman. Can you be all three for somebody?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Yeah, I think you can too. I was just thinking, "Can you be a mentor and a coach at the same time?". And I think the answer is yes. And then I thought, champion...I think you can be all three. Yeah. I'm glad we agree on that.

Jen: You totally can. You totally can. I mean, one of my clients immediately came to mind. But what I think is interesting is that I think there's some danger/tension/discomfort around assuming that someone would play all of those roles. And I know that one of the things I've been thinking about with this distinction of champion versus mentor is: how can I provide more clarity with my clients about how I see myself in their career path?

Pete: Yes.

Jen: I want to champion people. Because I know that there are people I'm working with who I really believe are the change I seek to see in the world, and I want to champion their work so they can go ahead and make that change. And then there are a lot of people who I think are wonderful. And I want to pour all of my knowledge into them, and help them to shape what they want to do, and then send them out into the world to do it.

Pete: I so agree with that. Yeah. I think there's the reality that we have the capacity to champion, coach, and mentor (all three of them as separate things), a finite number of people.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So, we need to get clear on: what role are we playing for which people? I think that's totally valid.

Jen: Exactly. And now looking back, having this lens, I now see that I've been in situations where I saw myself as the mentor. And the mentee saw me as their champion, and then felt some sort of confusion when they asked for something and I said no.

Pete: Me too.

Jen: And now I understand why. Because I was not clear that my role in this is to be your mentor, and then you must go out into the world and find a champion-

Pete: Me too.

Jen: -who can provide you the leverage that you need, to make the change you want to make.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That's happened, yeah, that happened recently. It's having a few times to me recently, where it's almost happened the opposite. Well, not the opposite. So, someone's come to me seeking a connection, essentially a champion relationship, and I've felt a mismatch. And I was trying to work out, "Why, why do I feel that mismatch? Why do I not necessarily feel like, for all of these scenarios, the connector is my role, the champion is my role?". And it's because I was their coach.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And, and I hadn't been explicit for either of us. But now I can be, because we've just recorded this episode. So thank you, Jen Waldman.

Jen: Okay. Now, I want to throw one more idea on the table. Which is, I had a friend come to me and say, "You have all of this knowledge and experience in one area, that I really feel like I could benefit from your knowledge and experience, and I would like you to be my mentor. But I don't want to be your mentee. Because I have a lot of experience and knowledge that you need to benefit from, what does a mentor-mentor relationship look like?".

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And that was really eye-opening for me. I think our relationship (yours and mine, Peter) is often like that.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And so I want to, to your earlier question about status...

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: What does a status-free mentor-mentor relationship look like? And I think it looks pretty darn good.

Pete: I think so too, Jen Waldman. I also think, actually, we could extend that. If we use you and I as an example, I think we can also play the role of champion-champion.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: I think, I think we definitely also play the role of coach-coach. In fact, just before this, this recording, you were coaching the pants off me about this thing that I did not expect to get my pants coached off about. And...

Jen: Sorry...unsolicited coaching.

Pete: Unsolicited coaching. And that happens between us all the time. So we coach-coach, we mentor-mentor, and we champion-champion. I think we do all three. Huh.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.