The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 90 - The Gift of Feedback

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Well, I would like to bring to you today something that came up in my class on Tuesday.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Which is: what do you do with shitty feedback?

Pete: [laughter] Yep. Yep. There's so many things to say already. [laughter] So, we should talk about this. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I have so many questions.

Jen: [laughter] Let me give you a little context. First...

Pete: Please. Please.

Jen: ...how this subject came to be. So I was teaching one of my acting classes and someone popped into the chat a quote from an acting teacher they had when they were in university. And it was nasty, unhelpful, and unproductive. And so we got into a conversation about: what do you do with the feedback that stung? And whether or not you believed it, it has stuck with you? Like, what do you do with that kind of feedback? And so in the moment, I was like, "I'm creating an exercise out of this right now.".

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So I asked everyone to get out of their head and onto the paper, five things that they can remember from past feedback. Positive or negative.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Constructive or destructive. Just five things that immediately come to mind. Which already is like interesting, like figure out what comes up. And then what we did was we sorted the list into helpful and not helpful.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Or useful and not useful. And then what we decided to do with the useful list is, if that has stuck with you, and it's been useful, how can you plus one it, or enhance it, or contribute to it, or make it your own? And then on the not helpful side, we determined that there were really two grand choices. One: burn it in the incinerator of your mind. [laughter] Or two: figure out how to turn it around and make it something useful.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And as I was reflecting on that, I remembered that some of the harshest criticism I had received about my own work or my own path, turned out to be the greatest gifts because I was able to turn them around. So I wanted to throw that out there and see what you had to add to that.

Pete: I just have to take a deep breath because I have so many things I want to say, questions I want to ask, directions I want to take this. Immediately, the thing that comes to mind when you said this was like: what is the definition of unhelpful or not useful, as opposed to helpful and useful? Because I suspect, there may be a tendency to think "helpful" and "useful" means positive, "unhelpful" and "not useful" means negative.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And yet, there is some incredibly helpful/useful feedback that I have received (that I think probably most of us received), that you would not necessarily deem to be positive. It might actually be quite confronting to have received this feedback on, "Here's a huge blind spot you have.". And I just wanted to say that out loud because immediately I thought, "Do you associate positive with helpful and useful? And do you associate negative with unhelpful and not useful?". Because the same is true of the unhelpful. We've talked about this in one of our episodes, I'm sure, where if someone says to you, "Hey, Jen. Great job on that class last night.". That's actually unhelpful.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Like, it's a positive. But it's not helpful. It's just like sort of a nice little affirmation. It's not specific. So, I don't know, did that come up in your conversation? Of like, things can be positive and unhelpful, and things can be perhaps "negative", but also super helpful?

Jen: Yes. It did, in fact.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Jen: Yes. Because we have this immediate tendency to associate negative feedback with destructive.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And I think that there is a way to take any feedback that comes with a negative construction and reconstruct it toward the positive. Or there are definitely times where the feedback you've gotten is both negative and not useful, in which case we burn it.

Pete: Totally. That's the burn. We burn that. Totally. I think the question, the question I think about a lot when receiving feedback...especially if it feels like it's got that negative connotation or like, framed in a negative way, or it triggers me in some way. Is: where's the gift?

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Like, where is the gift in this feedback? There is a gift here. Where is it? To your point, if I can't find it, perhaps I'll burn it to the ground. [laughter] But so often, there's a gift. And so that's the question I use to, to unpack that. What are the like ways that you guys talked about reframing those unhelpful, not useful pieces of feedback?

Jen: When you receive feedback in the form of direction, which a lot of my clients do...

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: ...negative feedback in the form of, "Do it this way." Or, "Don't do it that way."

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: One of the things you can do when you get a "don't do it that way" note is translate it into a "try it this way instead" note.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So if you get feedback like, "Don't raise your voice."

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: It could mean, "Do whisper. Do fall silent. Do sing. Do laugh.". There are so many different ways to interpret it when you're able to translate it into a "do" note.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then, I want to just offer one other thing that I have found to be really useful. And this comes from the one and only, the treasure that is Brene Brown...this concept of creativity scars, and to know that having creativity scars is normal.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So Brene has done over twenty years of research on this subject, and she said that 43% of the people in her studies have experienced a creativity scar, which she calls a "shame tool". And she says that the tool of shame used in a creativity scar moment is almost always comparison.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So comparison is a tool that people use to shame others, which results in a creativity scar. And just knowing that, can free you from it. That it wasn't really about you, it was about some other reference point the person delivering the feedback was stuck on.

Pete: It's not only that, but it's actually the way that we compare ourselves. I feel like often we, the receiver of feedback, receive feedback and we have a version of someone else (usually like someone at the top of their game) that we compare ourselves to. And then we're like, "Ah, I've come up short. I'm useless.". So I think, like in one of our really early episodes, we talked about: people don't start a project because they compare themselves to someone who is already so far progressed in that project, and I think I'll never get there. So I've used the example, I think, of Gimlet Media with their podcasts, and us.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And when we started our podcast, you could look at a Gimlet Media podcast (which is highly edited, highly produced, really, really crisp) and thought, "Well, we're just, we're just Jen and Pete with a mic. Like, we're never going to sound like that. So, we should just not bother.". And that comparison that we create in ourselves can prevent us from moving forward. Okay, the other thing I've been thinking a lot about recently...this has sort of been for, honestly for my own benefit in receiving what you might consider unhelpful and negative feedback, and trying to work out how to process that. And in a lot of the books I've read, in a lot of the work that I've done, what I've come to wonder and be curious about is whether it actually says more about the person giving the feedback than it does say about you. So a super basic, binary example might be: if someone through a negative tone of voice says to me, "You're like so tall, and lanky, and uncoordinated. It's ridiculous.". (Which is definitely feedback that I would receive as a teenager.) Like, is it that they're actually annoyed that I'm tall, and lanky, and uncoordinated? Or is it that they're more self-conscious about their own height? I don't know. But I would wager, and I've been starting to get curious about whether it says more about an insecurity, or a thought, or an idea, or an assertion that that person has about the world. And they're trying to fit you into their mental model, or they're trying to compare you to themselves, and it's like bumping up causing friction, so they give you "feedback" about that.

Jen: Well, what that brings up for me is that existing in the world is not an invitation for people to provide you feedback.

Pete: Say that again.

Jen: Existing in the world is not an invitation for people to provide you feedback.

Pete: That's so good. [laughter]

Jen: Yeah. And putting your work out there is an invitation for people to provide you feedback. Anytime you put yourself out there, you are opening yourself to feedback. It's not always going to be the feedback that you want, or the feedback that you like, but the fact that you're getting some sort response does mean that you are receiving feedback, and then you get to decide what you do with it.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And I would rather work with the assumption that all feedback is in some way helpful.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Even the stuff I decide to incinerate, what was helpful about that is it allowed me to claim agency over my choice to incinerate that feedback.

Pete: Mmm. I love that. Which validated the level of integrity you have around that particular thing.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So it comes, again, it comes back to that question of: where's the gift? I really like that. The other thing that it just feels like is so relevant, given we're talking about feedback, given you mentioned Brene who introduced me to this quote (not personally, but through her books), was The Man in The Arena quote by Theodore Roosevelt.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It just feels so relevant, and we've done an entire episode on The Arena. But I think the line that's particularly relevant (and we'll include this quote in the Box O' Goodies for those wondering what I'm talking about), but the line that's so interesting given what you just said, is, "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.". But it's this bit here, "Whose face is marred by dust, and sweat, and blood.". So, it's like immediately suggesting this is not going to be easy. There's going to be blood, there's going to be sweat, and there's going to be dust. That doesn't, like, invoke a frolic through the fields. This is like hard work with emotions and, you know, thrashing, and feedback, and like trying to unpack what that means. This is like quite a gladiator type, you know, like description of what it means to be in the metaphorical and literal arena.

Jen: Okay, so what's really interesting is...once we did that exercise where we had people name the things, and then sort them, and then make a decision, we immediately got back to work. And the next prompt was to use the decision that you made about that bit of feedback, or those bits of feedback, and actually allow it to inform your work right now.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And so, that arena quote just made me think of that. Because what was special, and what I would like to find a way to create more opportunity for, is that we had a group of people in the arena together in that moment, who were willing to risk what it might look like to immediately start processing the decision they made about feedback. So, we often talk about a generous and generative feedback loop.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: It's the generative part that eludes most people. So, what is it going to generate?

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: And I love that idea. And I'm encouraging the listeners to go back and listen to The Arena episode, because we, we got a lot of people sending us light bulbs, aha moments about that.

Pete: Nice. I also think...just thinking back to what you mentioned about helpful/useful versus unhelpful/not useful. I think personally, probably the feedback I've found most helpful, and most useful, has been someone illuminating a blind spot.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So often. And in order to be able to process that, I think one thing we need to be able to do...I've just finished rereading the book Principles by Ray Dalio, and he talks about radical open mindedness, which I just think of as open mindedness.

Jen: Hmm.

Pete: I don't know why it needs to be radical, but it does. [laughter] Which is essentially just being open minded to the fact that you don't know everything about the world. But not only that, you probably don't even know everything about yourself, and how you're perceived. And so if you can stay and remain open to your blind spots, and other people's interpretations of you, that is how we as leaders, as humans, as changemakers, as artists...that is how we grow.

Jen: Mmm. Ooh, that radically opened my mind. [laughter] Because I think what it points to...to bring it all the way back to the beginning.

Pete: Bring it back.

Jen: It is our preconceived notions, it's our commitment to things being on the binary, it is our belief that we know what we know and how dare someone question it, that closes our minds to very useful feedback. But if we practice radical open mindedness, we can, to your earlier point, see all feedback (good or bad, negative or positive), as a gift.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.