The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 97 - Process

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: I was doing a little scroll through the many, many episodes that we've recorded together and I realized we had never had a specific episode on process.

Jen: Really? Is that true?

Pete: Yeah, really. It's true. I mean, I feel like it's come up in a lot of episodes. The idea of process.

Jen: That's wild.

Pete: Yeah. So, I thought I'd like to hear a little bit about your ideas as it relates to process.

Jen: Alright, let's process process. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: [singing] "You say process, and I say process."

Pete: [laughter] Oh my god. Finally, I got you to sing on an episode. My goal is complete. And that is The Long and The Short...[laughter] So I connected a little dot yesterday that I think relates to all of this, which is kind of where this idea came from...outside the fact that I was also just checking out episodes to be like, "Have we ever talked about this?". And the dot was this idea of asking questions and holding space. And I've talked about that in many episodes, you and I have talked about that in many different contexts. And I realized the other day that that might be a process.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So, let me explain what I mean by that. In fact, before I jump in, maybe I should ask you, what do you think of when you think about process? Like, what is a process to Jen Waldman?

Jen: My entire life is about process. [laughter] Everything I teach is about process.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Sometimes the process of exploration without the need to arrive at any sort of finished product, and sometimes the process that brings you to a finished product. But that is...I'm all about process, my friend. I'm all about process.

Pete: I love it. I love it. Because as we've mentioned before, there's this beautiful idea that a process is different to an outcome, and that we need to be able to untangle the two. And so, a bit like a good decision doesn't lead to a good outcome, a good process doesn't necessarily lead to the outcome that you may desire. It could head you in the direction, but you can never guarantee the outcome. So really, all we have I guess, in a way, is the ability to control and set up a process that we feel comfortable with, that we feel is sound based on the work we seek to do. So in noodling on like, "I wonder what Jen would define her process as. I wonder what I would define my process as.". As I mentioned, I came to this like little dot that is, well, I talk a lot about asking questions and holding space. And I was sort of asking myself, "Is that a process?". And I think in this moment, I want to argue yes. Because the process (which I would sometimes call a posture) of showing up and asking questions and holding space, I use in so much different, so many different contexts, which produce different outcomes. So we've recorded, at this point, almost a hundred episodes of the podcast. And in each episode, I would say our process (at least mine, and I'm pretty sure yours) is kind of a version of, "I'm going to ask questions of Jen, and hold space to see what she says. And then we're going to, together we're going to kind of co-create an output, an episode. But when we start that, we don't necessarily know what the outcome is going be, we don't know what the output is going to be. So, all we really have is our process.". And then I was thinking, "Well, it's very much the same in coaching.". The process that I think about when I coach is, "I need to ask questions, and I need to hold space.". And do so from a, you know, a posture of curiosity. But again, it's all about asking questions and holding space. And then I was thinking about it as it relates to empathy, which is another thing we talk a lot about. And I was like, "Oh, yeah. The same process: ask questions and hold space.". So I was just like having this moment of, "Maybe my process, one of my processes is asking questions and holding space.". And so I was just like, curious to hear your take, hear what your processes are, and unpack it a little bit.

Jen: Well, the timing of this topic is, well, timely. Because I'm in the middle of teaching, right now, my process class called Preparing a Role. Where it's an eight-week class that dissects the process, starting with the very first read of a script and taking people up to first rehearsal. And it is every single day, adding another layer to the process. And what that makes me think about, just like hearing you talk about outcomes, is I actually think that there are two different kinds of outcomes depending on what your process is for. So, in the process that I'm teaching right now, as an example, there's an external outcome that's completely out of your control, which is: get cast in the role that you've prepared.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: But the internal outcome is: have the capacity to put forward a world class interpretation, or embodiment of that character. And that is absolutely within your control if you have a robust, full, rich process that you follow.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: So one of the things I set up at the beginning of the session...and I think this is, this would be true for your process of, of creating empathy by asking questions and holding space. And anything else that has a process is- if I asked you to write the textbook, what would the names of the chapters be and in what order would they appear? And that is most likely your process. And when you ask people to do that exercise, it very often helps them to point out where they have major gaps in their process. And then they could spend their time filling those gaps in.

Pete: Hmm. Ooh, I love that. I think the important call out that I hear is this idea of the things that we have control over.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Which I think is why I'm so attracted to this idea of a process. Because a process, by almost by definition, is something that you can repeat over and over again, that has clear steps or clear rules for yourself, of which you have control. So it's, it's like, I mean, it's back to that, back to, or not back to...it's this stoic idea of like, they talk about the dichotomy of control. Which is, in life, there are things you can control and things you can't control. Better to only focus on things you can control. Which I think is why I'm so attracted to process. Because it's like, "Oh, I can control these things, and the way I show up, and the rules that I set for myself, and the processes that I have, to your point, to put me in a position to maybe get that external outcome. But I don't, I don't have any guarantee that that external outcome is going to come. Because I don't have control over that.

Jen: Mmm. Okay, so here's something else that just occurred to me while hearing you talk about that. In order for something to be your process...I mean, you develop your process based on all of the learnings, based upon all the people you've interacted with, the experiences that you've had. In order for it to really be a process that you can call yours, it has to be something that's repeatable.

Pete: Totally.

Jen: That it's not, that it's not a one shot situation. But that when you develop a process, the idea is that you'd be able to go back to the beginning and execute the process again, with a different project, or a different person, or a different character, or whatever the process is meant to help you do. So, I think getting, getting clear that arriving at the internal outcome that you desire doesn't mean that you've established a process. You'd have to be able to repeat the process to know that it's actually a process.

Pete: Right. And then, I guess to go back to your point about the book, taking it a step further is...once you can repeat it, can you teach it to others?

Jen: Yeah. I mean, exactly. Part of being able to identify your process is being able to actually lay it out and say, "Okay, here's step one, step two, step three, etc.". And I think that's really important.

Pete: Okay, this is something I was really curious about, if we might dig into it and here we are. So, that is this idea of sharing our processes. I feel like in certain industries, or contexts, or cultures...I think of corporate a lot because I used to spend quite a bit of time in corporate. There is a tendency to not share process. There is a tendency to only share shiny polished outcomes, and kind of hide in that a little bit. And be like, there's an expectation or a culture of, "We don't want to see the mess.". The mess being often the process. "We just want to see the shiny, polished outcome." And so, if I'm trying to show a leader, or my manager, or a client a piece of work, I just show them the shiny, polished outcome. I don't actually show them the process. And I actually think that's ineffective for a number of reasons.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: But I'd be curious for your thoughts around like this idea of...I don't even know if it's industry specific. Maybe your industry is a good example of one in which processes are often shared and talked about. Is that true?

Jen: Well, so here comes the internal/external idea again. Well, in my industry, internally, people know that there is a process to creating a Broadway show, as an example.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: But the audience...actually, we keep quite a distance from the audience when it comes to sharing our process. And quite frankly, I think it's to our detriment. And I think, especially to the detriment of the artists as opposed to the business people involved in something like crafting a Broadway show. I just maybe two weeks ago finished reading this book called New Power by Jeremy Heimans and Henry Timms. It's called New Power: How Anyone Can Persuade, Mobilize and Succeed in our Chaotic, Connected Age. And essentially, the book talks about the difference between new power systems and old power systems. That old...you and I offline were talking about pyramids (prior to this call), that old power system of pyramids, and keeping all of the plans totally secret, and not sharing process. And the new power system is open source. Everyone can contribute. Everyone can collaborate. So when I hear you talking about guarding your process as like this super secret thing, that's very old power, according to this book that I just finished reading. And I'm very interested in new power, when we think about sharing our process for the betterment of others.

Pete: Totally. Like, what I hear is...what I think is, not sharing our process is stifling innovation and creativity. So, actually, it's funny, it's one of these things that was obviously in my subconscious that I'd sort of forgotten about. I wrote about this this week on my blog around sharing your process. And the two reasons I came up with as to why we should share our process is like, firstly, it's easier for us to revise if we share our process. So if we show the work that we've, the steps that we've taken to reach where we got to, it's easier for us to go back and revise it because we've like documented it, or we've thought about it and written it down. Or if it's a book you can go back and, you know, change the chapters, to use your example. But more importantly, I think, is the second point which is, it invites like creative, generous, generative feedback. So the two examples of, "Here, Jen. I made this widget. It's finished. What do you think?". Versus, "Alright, Jen. Here's a problem that I see. Here's a change I think that needs to be made. This is how I propose we could solve that problem. What do you think?". And inviting you into, like, "This is my process. What do you think," I think is more likely to invite creativity and innovation, because the widget that I came to you with might not actually be the thing that is needed to solve the problem. So by sharing my process, I'm inviting you to help me solve the problem as opposed to give me feedback on the widget. Does that make sense?

Jen: It does. It really does. I mean, I feel like...I feel a little bit called out in this conversation. [laughter] Sort of similar to how you felt during the counterfactual thinking moment.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Because it is only in recent years, Peter, that I think have found myself open to sharing my personal process. I've been very good at prescribing process to other people, but hadn't been very good at sharing my own process. And part of the secrecy was this deep-seated fear that someone would steal my ideas, my intellectual property, and claim it as their own.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: And so, I didn't share how I came up with my exercises in class. I didn't explain how other people could teach them. Like, it was super secretive. Until several years ago really, when...I don't even know what it was. Like, I can't remember the inciting incident. But it occurred to me that if I wanted to expand my impact, I had to share my process. Because I (Jen, the singular human) am not scalable. But my process is, my ideas are. And it was a bit of a wrestling match with myself.

Pete: I bet.

Jen: Because I was very scared about what would happen.

Pete: Hmm. Well, now it's wild because now I feel called out. [laughter] Because I'm realizing a version of the same thing, which is...it's similar but different in that, I've in the past (and still, sometimes) struggle to articulate and share my process. And I mean, if we go back to...there's an episode I think we did on whiteboarding, right in the early days. And you said something like, "Share your process of whiteboarding.". And I was like, "It's not a process. It's just, it's just what I do.".

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And what we kind of, what I kind of realized was, "Oh, there is a...like, the way that I do it is kind of the process." And so, what I'm recognizing, in this moment, is my inability to share a process stems from Imposter Syndrome, I think. Which is the fear that if I've showed you how messy my process is, then you're going to realize that, "Oh wait, Pete has no idea what he's doing. He's an imposter.".

Jen: Woah.

Pete: And so, I think in the past I've shied away from sharing my process out of fear of being found out as an imposter. So woah, here we are being called out.

Jen: Woah, woah, woah. Okay. I really am fascinated by where this conversation has turned to. Because my guess is that every person listening right now is trying to unpack this for themselves. And there are probably hundreds, if not thousands of different fears being named in this moment, about sharing the way we work and what that reveals about us. I am completely fascinated. I can't wait to journal about this, or voice memo about this because that's my process. I think there's really something there, Pete.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think it comes back to sharing it. Like, it comes back to a nudge, an encouragement for us to share our processes because that's how we can all make our processes better. Like that's how collectively as a group of listeners, but like collectively as society, honestly, is we get better through learning off other people's processes. So this, I guess this is like a call to action, if you like, of: Share your process, everybody. And I mean, I guess that, in a way, is not a new concept. It reminds me of Austin Kleon's book, Show Your Work, which was kind of the follow up to Steal Like An Artist, where he talks about (as the title would suggest) the benefits of sharing your work, sharing your process. So, maybe we just need to reread that book.

Jen: Okay, so this is really interesting. Because the...it's the steal like an artist part which is where my personal fear stemmed from.

Pete: Woah.

Jen: That people would just steal, instead of steal like an artist. And you know this. I mean, we've never really had this conversation on the podcast. So welcome, listeners. But how many times have I come to you and said, "Someone quoted me, but did not credit me for the work that I shared with them. And they either wrote a blog post about it, or named it in their podcast, or put it on their website, or whatever. And that came out of my imagination, and now it's under someone else's name.". And that really upsets me. Or, then makes me afraid that like, "What's going to happen to my ideas? Is it going to be misunderstood? Is it being misrepresented?". Ooh, fear onion is being peeled right now. Layers upon layers. And it all started with you asking, "What do you think of process?". I am gobsmacked.

Pete: [laughter] She's shook. She's shook.

Jen: I really am. I really am. I'm like...it's so funny because now I'm thinking about our learning labs. Where, what do we do? We lay out a process for other people to follow. Have we ever shared what our process is for coming up with the process for other people to follow? Never. We've never shared that. I'm so interested. This feels like-

Pete: Oh, that's curious.

Jen: -it might be a series of episodes.

Pete: It could be. Maybe we just started a new podcast called Processes. [laughter] So what do we, what do we make of all of this now? Like, we started by...I guess we start by getting clear for ourselves. Like, "What is my process?". So, I mentioned at the start of this call that I had this little aha moment that I think one of my processes...of which I think, I guess I would argue that you can have many processes. But one of mine is this idea of showing up to ask questions and hold space. And so I guess the challenge for everyone listening is like, firstly, get clear in, "What is your process? And do you have a repeatable, teachable process that is within your control?".

Jen: And if you do have a repeatable process that is in your control, what this ends up ultimately pointing you to is something we've talked about in almost every episode of this podcast, which is the ability to stand in integrity with yourself and to feel good about what you're putting out there. Being able to release the outcome of, "What do other people think? Jen, hear yourself right now.". What do other people think, fear of other people's opinions, compare leads to despair, you can let go of that. Because you will have created a process that allows you to step into your best work, the best possible version of yourself.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.